Killllington 🎿🏂🏂🎿🎿🏂🏂🎿😀

[AdironRider]

I disagree. It used to be that the ski season wrapped up right after Feb. Vacation week. Ski areas did their slush-cup in early to mid-March and the last day of the season was on limited terrain. Try to find a skiing package for after March 15. The problem is: Ski area management (with a few exceptions) refuses to market the late season product. Baseball has extended its season to November; Football has extended its season to Feb.; with the WNBA, basketball is now a 12-month a year sport. It takes time to develop the demand to extend the ski season and to date, ski area management has not stepped up to do it.

Can you cite an example (other than Killington) who has tried to market the spring product? You're citing a long-standing opinion that might have been true 50-years ago.

I actually know the financials on this and they are terrible after mid-March pretty much universally. A few select mountains pull it off because it either A) is their entire brand (Killington) or B) are a locals hills primarily with a dedicated following (Jay - I include second homeowners in the locals pile). In both of those instances, it only works to sell passes (2K a pop for Killington mind you). In both instances, they are mountains that are pretty well tailored to do it also, with one lift serving a dedicated trail / pod that requires minimal ski patrol / customer service to operate.

Comparing spring skiing to the freaking super bowl is pretty funny though. Just pretend you weren't serious and we'll forgive you.

 

[joshua segal]

I actually know the financials on this and they are terrible after mid-March pretty much universally. A few select mountains pull it off because it either A) is their entire brand (Killington) or B) are a locals hills primarily with a dedicated following (Jay - I include second homeowners in the locals pile). In both of those instances, it only works to sell passes (2K a pop for Killington mind you). In both instances, they are mountains that are pretty well tailored to do it also, with one lift serving a dedicated trail / pod that requires minimal ski patrol / customer service to operate.

Comparing spring skiing to the freaking super bowl is pretty funny though. Just pretend you weren't serious and we'll forgive you.

There’s a huge difference between being open and marketing a product. Places that most of you have listed have tried being open. They haven’t marketed their product.

 

[letitsnow1]

A few more reasons the masses don't like spring skiing, the trails get bumped up fast good for diehards bad for most intermediates. And the masses don't wax thier skis regularly that makes a big difference in the spring.

 

[joshua segal]

A few more reasons the masses don't like spring skiing, the trails get bumped up fast good for diehards bad for most intermediates. And the masses don't wax thier skis regularly that makes a big difference in the spring.

Still waiting for one of you to tell me not who is open and losing money. I’m waiting for one of you to tell me who has actually marketed the spring product. Killington has with their slogan, “when the rest of the world is green, killington will still be white”.

BTW: how many areas really know how to groom spring snow?

 

[snoseek]

Sugarloaf is.widely known as a killer spring destination. I'm not sure how much they've marketed but its fairly well known. It melts out slower and the sunny April days sell the product.

 

[deadheadskier]

Still waiting for one of you to tell me not who is open and losing money. I’m waiting for one of you to tell me who has actually marketed the spring product. Killington has with their slogan, “when the rest of the world is green, killington will still be white”.

BTW: how many areas really know how to groom spring snow?

What metrics are you using for Killington marketing their spring product at this great higher level than others in the Northeast that run late? Sugarbush, Jay and Sugarloaf all blast about skiing until May on social media no different than Killington. I doubt any of them advertise on the radio. Sugarloaf was calling themselves the King of Spring for many years. What do you want to see from other places that passes your marketing litmus test?

The reality is the busiest ski area in the East has the best location in terms of proximity to population centers, while being above 2k feet base elevation and they're also the only one with a venue like Super Star. And it only works when the sun shines and it's debatable just how profitable the best spring venue in the business is.

Your argument that it's because of bad marketing is pretty thin given the near 100 years of commercial ski operations and trends to look at here in the Northeast.

 

[Tonyr]

We've skied April or later at Stowe, Jay Peak, Sugarbush, Aspen Snowmass, Winter Park, Alta, Brighton, Snowbasin, Mammoth, Palisades Tahoe and my son and I have a Pacific Northwest trip this year starting the 1st week of April. I absolutely love spring skiing but can tell you that there is no way resorts are profitable this time of year. The majority of people have lost interest by then.

To be fair the only places I mentioned above that really market spring skiing are Mammoth and Palisades Tahoe and at the very best they break even most days in the spring. Except for 4th of July skiing we did one time at Palasides Tahoe about 5 years ago, I have never once seen a crowded ski area in April or later.

You can get fabulous airfare & lodging deals this time of year and the resorts are still dead. That fact alone should get people out on the slopes and it doesn't. When your potential upside is breakeven or slightly above, it's not worth the marketing investment.

 

[Tonyr]

Here is some Mammoth spring skiing marketing...

 

[Tonyr]

Palasides Tahoe spring skiing page is pretty good too...

Spring Skiing Capital®

Palisades Tahoe is known as the Spring Skiing Capital, consistently hosting Lake Tahoe's longest ski season.

www.palisadestahoe.com

 

[thetrailboss]

Palasides Tahoe spring skiing page is pretty good too...

Spring Skiing Capital®

Palisades Tahoe is known as the Spring Skiing Capital, consistently hosting Lake Tahoe's longest ski season.

www.palisadestahoe.com

Fellow POWDR resort, Snowbird, used to really promote spring skiing. They had a “spring pass” and regularly offered lift served skiing into May and June. I’ve skied there on two Fourth of July days (2011, 2019). They’ve pretty much abandoned it I think that this has hurt Snowbird’s brand.

Now that POWDR is out of Killington will the local ownership continue to push spring skiing? It is a key aspect of the Killington brand IMHO.

 

[joshua segal]

What metrics are you using for Killington marketing their spring product at this great higher level than others in the Northeast that run late? Sugarbush, Jay and Sugarloaf all blast about skiing until May on social media no different than Killington. I doubt any of them advertise on the radio. Sugarloaf was calling themselves the King of Spring for many years. What do you want to see from other places that passes your marketing litmus test?

...

Once you build a brand and paid the customer-acquisition costs, it becomes self-sustaining. Right now, Killington couldn't handle more business than they have in late May.

I cited one of the late-season slogans that Killington used in the 70s: “when the rest of the world is green, Killington will still be white”. They also used, "We'll run until you quit." It was Killington who marketed the early season product which eventually made Thanksgiving an industry-wide holiday week.

Costs are low late season. The J-1s have gone home. There are no snowmaking costs. Only a few lifts running, etc. They can even cut cafeteria ops and allow food-trucks in the parking lot.

If you run a seasonal food business with lots of stuff to sell, you don't let it rot on the shelves.

The commenter who said "the industry has been doing it this way for 100-years" should probably still be skiing on wooden skis with beartrap binding and lace up boots!

 

[Tonyr]

Fellow POWDR resort, Snowbird, used to really promote spring skiing. They had a “spring pass” and regularly offered lift served skiing into May and June. I’ve skied there on two Fourth of July days (2011, 2019). They’ve pretty much abandoned it I think that this has hurt Snowbird’s brand.

Now that POWDR is out of Killington will the local ownership continue to push spring skiing? It is a key aspect of the Killington brand IMHO.

2019 must have been the year we skied Palisades Tahoe over the 4th of July then. They were open on the 4th in 2023 too which is pretty crazy. Snowbird could have been opened that year over the 4th as well. I believe they had over 800 inches of snow during the 22/23 ski year.

In any event, I'd say a closing date for Snowbird in May is still pretty good. That beats more than 95% of the ski resorts in the US...


Snowbird's average closing date matches up with Killington's closing dates pretty well over the last 5 years...


I agree with you that part of Killington's identity, like Mammoth & Palisades Tahoe, is the spring skiing setup. I've never done it there before but it would be a blow to the brand if they stopped it. Unlike the California resorts though, I'd have to imagine that the man made glacier on Superstar is pretty expensive to produce. I guess it depends on how big the loss is verses goodwill. If Killington can get even close to breakeven after March then spring skiing is worth it for their brand identity alone.

 

[Tonyr]

Once you build a brand and paid the customer-acquisition costs, it becomes self-sustaining. Right now, Killington couldn't handle more business than they have in late May.

I cited one of the late-season slogans that Killington used in the 70s: “when the rest of the world is green, Killington will still be white”. They also used, "We'll run until you quit." It was Killington who marketed the early season product which eventually made Thanksgiving an industry-wide holiday week.

Costs are low late season. The J-1s have gone home. There are no snowmaking costs. Only a few lifts running, etc. They can even cut cafeteria ops and allow food-trucks in the parking lot.

If you run a seasonal food business with lots of stuff to sell, you don't let it rot on the shelves.

The commenter who said "the industry has been doing it this way for 100-years" should probably still be skiing on wooden skis with beartrap binding and lace up boots!

I love all of the spring skiing enthusiasm, I see that you are really ready to die on this hill!

 

[deadheadskier]

The commenter who said "the industry has been doing it this way for 100-years" should probably still be skiing on wooden skis with beartrap binding and lace up boots!

That was me. And no, I simply trust the thousands of bright minds who have run our ski areas in the East over the past century and determined spring operations are a money loser more than some kook on the Internet blabbing its because of marketing that they are unsuccessful.

You didn't answer my question. What more marketing do you want to see from Jay, Sugarbush and Sugarloaf that honestly would make a difference. I also mentioned Wildcat used to compete. It was always known to try and stay open until May. Almost always dead in April. Thousands of people across the street hiking instead.

 

[1dog]

It's sort of like marketing Black Friday Sales in mid- Jan. Spend away, but few are watching or engaging. Masses ( not most in this crowd) have taken up Spring activities come end of March. Especially if the weather in central/south NE is warm.

Short of RE, it is a tough business. More difficult to grab a market that has an Ikon and more trails to the south than drive another hour north unless you have a place there.

It's sad for the committed, but the masses are the masses. They are not as committed or their families have other commitments - those sports of Spring start mid March now. .

 

[Zand]

2019 must have been the year we skied Palisades Tahoe over the 4th of July then. They were open on the 4th in 2023 too which is pretty crazy. Snowbird could have been opened that year over the 4th as well. I believe they had over 800 inches of snow during the 22/23 ski year.

In any event, I'd say a closing date for Snowbird in May is still pretty good. That beats more than 95% of the ski resorts in the US...

View attachment 63625
Snowbird's average closing date matches up with Killington's closing dates pretty well over the last 5 years...

View attachment 63629
I agree with you that part of Killington's identity, like Mammoth & Palisades Tahoe, is the spring skiing setup. I've never done it there before but it would be a blow to the brand if they stopped it. Unlike the California resorts though, I'd have to imagine that the man made glacier on Superstar is pretty expensive to produce. I guess it depends on how big the loss is verses goodwill. If Killington can get even close to breakeven after March then spring skiing is worth it for their brand identity alone.

Pretty sure K went to June 4th in 2022. I know I skied Memorial Day that year and then they opened the following Saturday.

 

[Tonyr]

Pretty sure K went to June 4th in 2022. I know I skied Memorial Day that year and then they opened the following Saturday.

You are correct! This is from Killington's website...

Historical Open/Close Dates

View Killington Resort open and closing dates for the past few decades

www.killington.com

 

[skiur]

Even Killington is empty on weekends in April and may that aren't nice warm sunny days. There simply isn't enough interest in skiing late spring. Nobody wants to ski if it doesn't soften up and only diehards want to ski when it does. I don't really understand how anybody can argue that.

 

[Smellytele]

On closing day at K it is not empty. Place is usually mobbed with a very long line to start the day. By 10:30 though it is ski (walk) on.

 

[skiur]

On closing day at K it is not empty. Place is usually mobbed with a very long line to start the day. By 10:30 though it is ski (walk) on.

But every other weekend in April and especially may is weather dependent on people showing up. I am there for most of them.