Lessons / Age

[Sparky]

I have been told (by people that should know) that 75% to 80% of lessons sold now days are for students 14 years of age or younger. I have to say that that kind of matches my experience this year. While it is great to see kids getting into this sport, it does make me wonder why the lack of adult lessons. There are of course some obvious reasons for kids to be in lessons, the first being to actually learn how to ski ,( better an instructor then most parents, just like trying to teach your SO) the second is while the kids are in a lesson the parents can go off and do whatever. (in most cases whatever seems to be skiing but who knows). Both are excellent reason, however most of the parents could use a few pointers themselves. After all it’s not going to be long before their mini-me says “come on Dad/Mom follow me” and they take off down Double Dead Mans ice covered bump run into “Abandon All Hope” glades which opens up at “Thrill Seekers” Terrain Park. So much for bonding with your kid.

So my question is why are there so few adult lessons? The ones that are sold are usually returning to the sport and want to learn how to use the “New” shaped skies or they SO has dragged them out and dumped them in a lesson.

 

[YardSaleDad]

it does make me wonder why the lack of adult lessons.

As an 40+ adult who started a year ago and has taken half a dozen lessons this season, it's pretty aparrent. 90% of my classes were people who only started skiing in adulthood. Even the really good students. There is no pride to swallow when you take that first class. After the first class, it goes one of two ways.

1) This skiing thing is not for you, or you are enduring this sport out of love for your SO or kids.

2) You realize that lessons are the shortcut to the Double Dead Mans ice covered bump run.

 

[skibum1321]

Let me just say that Double Dead Mans Ice Covered run is probably one of my favorite runs ever. Always a good time .

Anyway, to answer your question, I feel as if I am a better skier than 90% of the instructors out there. I don't want to be taking tips from someone that I don't feel is much better than me. Also, lessons don't usually do the terrain I want to do - backcountry. I'm sure I could learn a thing or 2 from an expert lesson but I just don't want to waste the time/money. I know a few things I should be doing and I'm working on them now on my own.

 

[Catul]

I started skiing in my early 20's, did it for about 8 years and took several lessons throughout in my quest to constanty get better. Now back into it after a 6-year hiatus and I've already taken three lessons this season - looking to break out of that "intermediate rut" and some lessons coupled with lots of snow time is the only way to accelerate that.

All three lessons were group lessons, and I was the only one in them each time . It's true, most adults (unless they're beginners) shy away from lessons. I didn't get much out of one of those lessons, but the first one I lucked out in getting a Level III instructor who really made a significant difference in my skiing; I'm looking to hook up with him for a private soon.

I think it's important, after a certain point (like hitting decent intermediate level) to find the right instructor - that makes all the difference.

 

[jackstraw]

i agree, most adults would benefit from a lesson. i will make the assumption that most don't because they think they're better than they really are. it is also very expensive just to ski let alone pay for a lesson. the same could probably be said for any adult sport/game...like golf!

my guess is that most people on this forum are advanced skiers and wouldn't benefit tremendously from a lesson in the east. head to jh, taos, bird or somewhere that offers terrain that is much more challenging than what is available back here and lesson participation would increase...maybe.

 

[hammer]

I have not taken a lesson this year...I know I should have, but when the rest of the family's skiing I tend to have limited to no time to go off on my own.

That'll have to change next year...I'm getting tired of seeing my son waiting at the bottom for me all of the time.

 

[Bumpsis]

my guess is that most people on this forum are advanced skiers and wouldn't benefit tremendously from a lesson in the east. head to jh, taos, bird or somewhere that offers terrain that is much more challenging than what is available back here and lesson participation would increase...maybe.

I quite agree with the above. When I'm out west, especialy at places like Taos, I will take a lesson for a number of reasons - refresher in skiing steeps and really tough moguls and often the instructor can either take you or tell you about places on the mountain that you'd otherwise miss. Well worth the money.

 

[riverc0il]

skibum1321, i am with you on being an expert level skier that does not take lessons, though for a much different reason. i don't think being better than an instructor is a good reason not to take a lesson. instructors often can identify ways for people to improve even if they are not technically proficient themselves. there are a lot of instructors out there that are far from being expert level skiers that could still offer an expert skier an important tip or too. my reason from not taking lessons involves return on investment: how little improvement am i going to see for how much money at my level? not to say i couldn't benefit, but i feel i could benefit more by putting that money into another lift ticket. i am familiar with most of my short falls or areas of improvement needed, the only way to really improve is by doing it and practicing repeatedly. an instructor can only tell you what you need to work on and how you need to do it, after that, it is all about the reps once you have the knowledge.

to the question, i think very few adults stick with skiing if they didn't learn as kids. most adults i know that try skiing for the first time only go once and never go back. that doesn't explain by perenial intermediates and lower level experts are not working on getting better. i suspect it is because once people reach a minimal level of proficiency to enjoy the recreation, they also see a reduced return on investment of lessons. and/or they are not willing to put in the days and time and make the commitment to improving. skiing is VERY hard to perfect, most skiers plateau at the lower expert level and don't think it's worth it to keep working on improvement. for the average skier only going out 5 times a year or taking one or two big trips, they may be right. whereas kids need to learn a basic level of proficiency.

another factor involves something i was discussing with greg yesterday: i think a lot of people rate themselves as better skiers than they really are. because someone can survive a black diamond, they think they are an expert. but that isn't how it works, you become an expert once you have mastered the mountain and can ski anything, and do so well... preferably with some style. but it takes more work than most want to put into it. again, justifiable for people who don't ski a heck of lot or people or have reached a level of proficiency equivelent to their desire of enjoyment.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I have been told (by people that should know) that 75% to 80% of lessons sold now days are for students 14 years of age or younger.

To be fair Sparky, Jiminy Peak caters to school groups for night skiing M/F. They package lessons into the programs they offer, so for sure your majority has to be kids.

 

[Sparky]

To be fair Sparky, Jiminy Peak caters to school groups for night skiing M/F. They package lessons into the programs they offer, so for sure your majority has to be kids.

That is all true, however the 75% to 80% figure I got was a national figure not just Jiminy.

I tend to agree with riverc0il and skibum1321, once you know what to work on and what it feels like when you get it right, then mileage is the key to "owning it" It gets you to the point that you no longer have to think about it just happens. When you get there it's yours. That is often the direction I taken in lessons. People aren’t always expected to perfect a skill/movement during the lesson, just be able to feel when it works and when it doesn’t so they put in the miles to “own it”. There is a survey out they that shows that most skies think that the most important thing to getting better is to have a season pass. I tend to agree, the more mileage you have to prefect something the better, but you still have to know what you have to work on. And that’s where lessons come in. If you’re only getting out 5 or so times a year it’s going to be very difficult to improve, it would seem that you are only going to reinforce bad habits.

I’m not trying to sell lessons, I’m just trying to understand the trend. We all know that boomers are the largest economic/financial influence out there and of course resorts, like any other business, have to survive so they do have to cater to the money. Which seems to mean lessons/day care for their kids/grandkids? (some of those boomers are getting up there, including me), but as I stated earlier, as those kids get better it’s going to be difficult to keep them in sight let alone keep up with them. This situation can occur sooner then you think. I’m not talking about teenagers here (they will be trying to avoid parental units as part of standard operating procedure), but the preteens. You know pre-teens, they are the ones that will still talk to you in full sentences even when they aren’t asking for money.

I also agree that skiers tend to rate themselves higher then they are, and that’s ok, instructors know that and will make their own assessment. I have often heard skiers beaming with pride that they “did” a black diamond, they think if they didn’t fall or didn’t damage themselves they can “do” black diamonds. It is nice to see the willingness to push limits, but as the saying goes” the better I get the more fun it is”

Lessons are expensive and I don’t think they are meant to be a consent thing (don’t tell the Ski School Director I said that), it just seems that some pointers on what to work on now and then would be a worthwhile investment.

 

[JimG.]

This is simple to explain, and it centers around the expert impression that they are better than 90% of the instructors out there. It's simple because that 90% figure is probably true or the adult skier thinks it is true.

75-80% of any ski school's business is beginners and novices, level 5 and below. Most of those students are going to be kids because of two things:

1) adults are more uptight than kids and don't like to be beginners at anything.
2) as a corollary, once an adult skis a little they think they're an expert and don't need lessons anymore.

So, most ski schools don't need instructors who are great skiers, just good enough to teach those levels. Remember, fully certified instructors who can teach/coach upper level skiing cost alot more than uncertified instructors. So there aren't many of them unless it's a huge ski school.

All that said, you could still ask for one of those level III and above instructors, but that'll be a private lesson and it'll cost more. So, the way ski schools are set up and staffed kind of discourages upper level lessons.

Here's my take...I've skiied with alot of great skiers. Every one of them has technique issues they work on, sometimes several. I work on my own stuff constantly. I seek out skiers who ski like me and watch what they do well and what they don't do well. Mostly it's to reinforce my own skiing techniques and to reinforce the good mental image of smooth fluid skiing. I've yet to see the PERFECT skier out there who has no flaws.

And I'll guarantee nobody on this site is perfect either. We can all learn new and better ways. You just don't always have to pay extra for it.

 

[NYDrew]

River took care of most of my responce.

I agree, an expert skiier is not someone who poops them self, but survives, down a double diamond. An expert skiier is someone who didn't notice the double diamond sign and just skiied it because it looks like a nice run. They/We are the people you see skiing under a lift and you say, "that looks like a nice trail" but when you finally get there, you curse the day you were born.

Most instructors are expert level skiiers. The reason we seem below our own level is because you never see us. In uniform we are with lessons and skiing below our ability, matching that of the student, or we are training and doing something that intentionally makes us look stupid. When skiing on our own, we are out of uniform and blend right in with the crowd, or lack of.. The only sign that we may be an instructor is a PSIA pin or logo. Many of us, myself included, never wear our pins (because the pin stinks and they fall off and are expensive to replace).

I also agree with steve that the bang for your buck at an expert level is iffy. You may not always get it, while you will still get a few great tips. Recommend to your local mountain that they start an affordable expert program, multiple lessons. They should realize that if you find that instructor with a bang, you probably will come back because it is worth it now. Most expert skiiers that want lessons become instructors to get the lessons free.

Its the end of the season, quit talking about lessons and enjoy the rest of winter (errr, summer?)

 

[hammer]

I don't understand the correlation that too many people make between the type of trails that they can go down and their skiing ability/level...I like to try a more difficult trail each time I go out but I'd never think I'm an advanced or expert skier just because I can make it down a black trail...

As far as the value of lessons is concerned, I'd guess that it does decrease as you gain in proficiency, but it's always good to have another person look at your technique and make suggestions for improvement...

 

[skibum1321]

River said it best - I just don't think the few little things they would point out would make a big enough difference in my skiing to warrant a lesson. I know I'm not perfect and I'm working on a few things now - most notably flicking my wrists instead of planting. I tend to plant in moguls and tougher stuff especially. I have the flick down on easier terrain but I revert to old habits a lot. Also, I tend to look down too much instead of looking ahead. This goes beyond skiing for me as well since I walk with my head down alot as well. That's something I'm working on both on and off the slopes.

 

[JimG.]

River said it best - I just don't think the few little things they would point out would make a big enough difference in my skiing to warrant a lesson. I know I'm not perfect and I'm working on a few things now - most notably flicking my wrists instead of planting. I tend to plant in moguls and tougher stuff especially. I have the flick down on easier terrain but I revert to old habits a lot. Also, I tend to look down too much instead of looking ahead. This goes beyond skiing for me as well since I walk with my head down alot as well. That's something I'm working on both on and off the slopes.

Like I said, you don't have to pay extra for it.

You and I both know when something's not right, and it may take a little longer to figure it out on our own, but there is the usual list for most folks. You have the pole touch issue and the looking down issue.

I have the looking down issue sometimes too; lately I've been working on my upper body in bumps and guess what...now my legs are a figurative mile apart in bumps. So now I've got to spend time on my lower body in bumps.

My guess is that after I cure that it'll be the looking down issue again because I'm peeking to make sure my legs are pinned together. It never ends!

 

[smootharc]

Got to thinking....

...I know, a scary thing....but one thing I think the instructing community could perhaps do a better job of promoting and/or indicating they understand is matching their analysis and suggestions made during a lesson to the style of skiing THE SKIER is looking to achieve. By asking. The less experienced skiers out there probably haven't even thought of this, so let's leave them out of the equation for the moment.

Let me try to clarify. I've been interested in the DeLaurier brother's all-mountain book....and it really puts a different wrinkle on just updating "old school" techniques by adding the "new school" equipment. I've asked a few ski schools (not naming any names, and not at my home mountain...been too durn busy there with my little guys programs) if they had any instructors who were familiar with the D brother's "style" and could make an analysis of my skiing....based on wanting to work toward this "method". Blank stares. But not surprising.

So my hesitance is that I'm trying to work toward a particular paradigm, and I haven't found another practitioner who's an instructor who can help with a style specific analysis. No criticism here.....I realize catering to a large audience is the sensible thing, and that ski school folks in general work waaaay hard for their $$$.

So I practice the drills in the book, and probably should hook up for an extreme clinic with the D brothers themselves. I even asked them if they would ever produce a DVD showing the drills they have images of in the book. And, yes, I am feeling I'm beginning to practice what they preach, and like the results.

 

[JimG.]

I think the instructing community could perhaps do a better job of promoting and/or indicating they understand is matching their analysis and suggestions made during a lesson to the style of skiing THE SKIER is looking to achieve.

Good idea, catering to the customer's desires, but it'll never happen I'm afraid. Most ski schools have alot invested in PSIA and telling the instructor what and how you want to learn and what style you're looking to emulate is not the PSIA way of doing things.

PSIA has a vested interest in teaching the PSIA model of skiing, and that's what your PSIA certified instructor is going to teach you whether you like it or not.

As I think about it, this is probably why most lessons are sold to kids...that method works on kids, but not on adults who like to have a say in the learning process.

 

[hammer]

Not sure if this is a related question...is it worth it to take a lesson late in the season?

 

[JimG.]

Not sure if this is a related question...is it worth it to take a lesson late in the season?

Sure it is...can't tell you how many exhausted skiers I saw out there this past weekend trying to ski in slushy snow.

Even though alot of folks love spring skiing, for most of them it isn't because they like the snow quality. There's a good lesson right there, learning to master the mush.

 

[hammer]

Sure it is...can't tell you how many exhausted skiers I saw out there this past weekend trying to ski in slushy snow.

Even though alot of folks love spring skiing, for most of them it isn't because they like the snow quality. There's a good lesson right there, learning to master the mush.

Thanks...I was mainly wondering because I may be going out for the last time and I didn't know if I'd have enough of a chance to apply what I learn before my season's over...