Massive ORDA Lift Upgrades Across 3 Resorts

[PAabe]

If they want shiny new capital infastructure all they had to do was replace the riblet triple with a nice new skytrac or partek... the proposed detach won't even get you to the top faster because the bottom of the proposed lifeline is longer and flatter

Also raises the question - how are intermediate skiers going to access the terrain or park rats run laps without a midstation?

How about some shiny new snowmaking guns or a lift at highmount?

Also for those not on the NYSB forum... check out page 46-48 of the Gore UMP. The dark and light gray hatched areas are glades to be converted to trails and trails to be widened.

Barkeater, Twister, Cirque, High Pine, Straight Brook, Ski Bowl, and JJ's are indicated as new trails
Boreas to be bisected
Almost every single trail has approval to be widened and straightened


The future of Gore is... concerning

I'm all for the Ski Bowl expansion if they actually blow the snow to open up the traverse, but the widening and Okemo-izing of the rest of the mountain in the plans is terrible. And if they're not going to blow snow, it'd just be better to not even rip up the vanderwhacker wilderness

 

[deadheadskier]

Guess I need to make it to Gore before they F it up

 

[cdskier]

If they want shiny new capital infastructure all they had to do was replace the riblet triple with a nice new skytrac or partek... the proposed detach won't even get you to the top faster because the bottom of the proposed lifeline is longer and flatter

Also raises the question - how are intermediate skiers going to access the terrain or park rats run laps without a midstation?

How about some shiny new snowmaking guns or a lift at highmount?

You're right...every lift does not need to be a HS lift. It is overkill (but that's what happens when you have "free" money and don't need to run the mountain like an actual business). Interesting question about the mid-station.

As for snow-making, at the same meeting where they approved the lift plans, the board also approved $4.5M for snow-making improvements at Belleayre.

$4M was also approved for snow-making improvements at Whiteface and another $2.9M was approved for snow-making improvements at Gore. The description for both of those "projects" was exceptionally vague though. In general ORDA also discussed purchasing 774 additional low-e guns. I'm not clear if that is a separate resolution/project that they didn't officially vote on yet or whether that gun purchase is included in the 3 above mentioned snow-making improvement projects.

 

[x10003q]

Guess I need to make it to Gore before they F it up

No worries - the trail widening at Gore will happen the same time they cut the trails off Burnt Ridge HSQ (installed 2008) - we are still waiting.

Gore usually opens Burnt Ridge (currently 2 ski trails and 2 connectors) mid Jan and that HSQ is the most underused high speed lift in the East. The idea that they will have enough snowmaking to open up the North Creek Ski Bowl is laughable. The Ski Bowl HSQ wil be the second least used high speed lift in the east - after Burnt Ridge.

 

[AdironRider]

I think the new lift at Whiteface is a decent add. The current Bear Den area sucks as a base to get anywhere near the upper mountain quickly or efficiently. This creates a much more usable area for any family with intermediate or higher skiers and expands beginner terrain availability as well. Having two viable base areas is a good thing.

16.5 million is a lot of money but everything is expensive these days and skiers are notorious for being resistant to change.

 

[Bandit2941]

Hopefully, the new lift doesn't result in Utsayantha being cut in half by another Onondaga, a forever-groomed run, as that run is arguably the best on the mountain if there is natural snow.

Fixed that for you. If they make it a high speed quad with no mid station I would expect another wrap around so the gapers can get down.

 

[danimals]

If ORDA could do a better job getting the word out that ski areas other than whiteface exist they could print money.

I work with people who ski double digit days a year and never heard of gore or Belleayre. They sure have heard and have been to hunter. I’ve taken a few to Belleayre and gore and they loved both.

 

[cdskier]

If ORDA could do a better job getting the word out that ski areas other than whiteface exist they could print money.

I work with people who ski double digit days a year and never heard of gore or Belleayre. They sure have heard and have been to hunter. I’ve taken a few to Belleayre and gore and they loved both.

What do you propose they do? I swear I've seen ads in NJ for both Gore and Belleayre (billboards, etc). And with how easy it is to find information on the Internet, I don't know how people don't come across information on these resorts if they simply look at what is out there.

 

[x10003q]

What do you propose they do? I swear I've seen ads in NJ for both Gore and Belleayre (billboards, etc). And with how easy it is to find information on the Internet, I don't know how people don't come across information on these resorts if they simply look at what is out there.

ORDA has never marketed Gore in the NY metro area. Ski NY ads show Gore for a millisecond along with multiple other NYS ski areas. These ads are on local cable stations. Whiteface/Lake Placid is marketed in NY metro. The lack of Gore marketing is why the number of Gore visits has remained static at about 215k/year for the last 20 years despite spending probably close to $100million doubling the size of Gore. Nobody has ever had to answer for this failure. Now ORDA planning to spend a small fortune on the Ski Bowl Lodge, new HSQ, and supposedly cut a bunch of new trails all while still not having enough snowmaking capacity.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

i occasionally see generic I<3NY signage in the subways that boasts the number of ski areas in nys, but i don't see gore or whiteface specific advertising anywhere really

stratton plastered the NY subway system the past few years. you see their shit everywhere.

 

[danimals]

What do you propose they do? I swear I've seen ads in NJ for both Gore and Belleayre (billboards, etc). And with how easy it is to find information on the Internet, I don't know how people don't come across information on these resorts if they simply look at what is out there.

put up some billboards on the thruway and whatever the road hunter is on. Some comedic line about free parking and shorter lines. Anything more than they are doing now.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

also - vomit @ the clearning glades for trails plan. weak

 

[x10003q]

I think the new lift at Whiteface is a decent add. The current Bear Den area sucks as a base to get anywhere near the upper mountain quickly or efficiently. This creates a much more usable area for any family with intermediate or higher skiers and expands beginner terrain availability as well. Having two viable base areas is a good thing.

Only a state agency could produce such a ridiculous proposal. On what planet can anybody justify spending $16.5 million for a 4300 foot long HSQ serving about 800 vertical feet with zero trails added? Who decides that the answer is a 2 stage HSQ? The basis for this proposal has to do with avoiding chopping trees. The straight line would probably cost half. Are there no limits to what can be spent on one lift of questionable usage? Nobody says maybe $16.5 million is too much?

The typical capacity of HSQs ranges from 2000 to 3000 skiers per hour. If there is an actual need for this type of capacity (doubtful), where are all these skiers going to go? There is no planned trail expansion. There is no crowding at the main base at WF. How about just using the first stage only if there are absurd limits placed on construction? Although, that short section might only need a fixed grip quad and ORDA wants a HSQ.
A similar HSQ proposed at Belleayre (single stage only) came in at $6.5 million. A fixed grip quad would be in the $2mill-$3mill range with less ongoing maintenance.
The savings could be used to figure out how to replace and update the 3 doubles on Little WF.

 

[cdskier]

ORDA has never marketed Gore in the NY metro area. Ski NY ads show Gore for a millisecond along with multiple other NYS ski areas. These ads are on local cable stations. Whiteface/Lake Placid is marketed in NY metro. The lack of Gore marketing is why the number of Gore visits has remained static at about 215k/year for the last 20 years despite spending probably close to $100million doubling the size of Gore. Nobody has ever had to answer for this failure. Now ORDA planning to spend a small fortune on the Ski Bowl Lodge, new HSQ, and supposedly cut a bunch of new trails all while still not having enough snowmaking capacity.

All I can say is I know I've seen "More Gore" billboards in multiple places. Can't particularly remember where. But it was either somewhere in NJ or on a main route from NJ on the way to a resort in VT. So if someone is a "double digit days skier" and coming from the NY metro area, I find it hard to believe they're not seeing these billboards at some point in their travels.

 

[danimals]

All I can say is I know I've seen "More Gore" billboards in multiple places. Can't particularly remember where. But it was either somewhere in NJ or on a main route from NJ on the way to a resort in VT. So if someone is a "double digit days skier" and coming from the NY metro area, I find it hard to believe they're not seeing these billboards at some point in their travels.

We aren’t in the ny metro area, so that’s most likely why.

 

[cdskier]

We aren’t in the ny metro area, so that’s most likely why.

There was also a "More Gore" billboard at one point on I-81 somewhere between Binghamton and Syracuse in the past (could even still be there...). (I know this one for a fact because one of the owners of the local resorts in that area was complaining that it wasn't fair to them that they had to compete with ORDA's budget).

So at least points west, south, and east of Gore have had some degree of marketing in the past...no idea about north.

 

[PAabe]

put up some billboards on the thruway and whatever the road hunter is on. Some comedic line about free parking and shorter lines. Anything more than they are doing now.

I am pretty sure there is a big billboard for Belleayre before the Kingston thruway exit - something along the lines of it being closer than other areas
When you go up I87 you pass the brown signs that have all the ski areas listed: Belleayre/Plattekill, then Hunter/Windham, Willard/Oak, and then the big "ADIRONDACK PARK SKI AREAS:West-18/Gore-Hickory-23/Whiteface-Titus-30" sign. And you ask yourself, why I am driving all the way to Whiteface when I could already be at Gore!

Then you get off and there are those little brown skier pictures pointing to how to get to all the mountains, and not just the ORDA ones.
I do see a lot of Gore and Belleayre stickers here in PA on helmets but you still tell most people you went to Gore and they're like "oh where is that"
I see ads with the ORDA areas in PA on TV but mostly pictures of Whiteface and they're just general "visit NY" ads not specific to an area. Online I pretty much only see Ikon ads.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah, let's not do more bill boards please. World needs less of those

 

[abc]

Gore just isn’t much of a destination.

Lake Placid has a very high name recognition. North Creek?

Bell is busy enough on weekends. I’m not sure it needs more advertising.

 

[PAabe]

Only a state agency could produce such a ridiculous proposal. On what planet can anybody justify spending $16.5 million for a 4300 foot long HSQ serving about 800 vertical feet with zero trails added? Who decides that the answer is a 2 stage HSQ? The basis for this proposal has to do with avoiding chopping trees. The straight line would probably cost half. Are there no limits to what can be spent on one lift of questionable usage? Nobody says maybe $16.5 million is too much?

The typical capacity of HSQs ranges from 2000 to 3000 skiers per hour. If there is an actual need for this type of capacity (doubtful), where are all these skiers going to go? There is no planned trail expansion. There is no crowding at the main base at WF. How about just using the first stage only if there are absurd limits placed on construction? Although, that short section might only need a fixed grip quad and ORDA wants a HSQ.
A similar HSQ proposed at Belleayre (single stage only) came in at $6.5 million. A fixed grip quad would be in the $2mill-$3mill range with less ongoing maintenance.
The savings could be used to figure out how to replace and update the 3 doubles on Little WF.

Topo map with proposed liftlines:

1. The alternate route would have to go up and then go way back down again which is ridiculous as well, and the liftline would look hideous on lookout mountain
2. The two-stage route intersects SO many trails which would also look hideous
3. There is little room for the top terminal and that area is already a congested mess
4. This whole 14 million dollar lift basically services ONE green trail! There is one other possible way down across catwalks which often aren't open.
5. The bear den area is great for beginners because it is very flat and separated from the rest of the mountain and skiers bombing down it. The main crowd having to bomb through there to get to the lift isn't fun for anyone.
6. Easy street is a war zone of people falling down due to several steep slopes but this lift doesn't even cut off the worst of it if that was one of the goals
7. The lift does not go up far enough to access the summit lift or lookout lift. Everybody will still have to use Face Lift, especially since Little Whiteface and Expressway never run.
8. The terrain below mid moutain really isn't that fun. They could disperse people through the freeway, expressway, and little gore pods just by running the lifts they already have. The only reason to go below the mid mountain lodge is to get to the face lift/summit lift when the doubles aren't running.

There used to be a lift going from the main base to the middle lodge. That line would be a whole lot more useful than this monstrosity
An alternate route out of the base when it is congested is the Bear lift + Freeway but they never run freeway so that would be imply that is not a goal either