More news on apparent decline in snowboarding / increase in skiing

[SnowRock]

I definitely agree that the changes in ski tech are playing a big role in driving more people towards skis again, but I also think you are seeing a sport go through its life cycle. You are going to have plateaus and periods of decline. Remember how young the sport really is from a consumer standpoint.. I think the sport will contract some and you will end up with a more sustainable, steady participation number. I just hope for the health of the industry overall that we don't see contraction of both skier and snowboard numbers.

I learned on skis at a real young age but didn't love it... started boarding in the early 90s. The new skis look like so much more fun. If it wasn't for my bum knee this season, I think I'd spend a day trying it out again. Will probably give it a shot next year.

 

[AdironRider]

Twin tips have been around since the 90's. You guys really think twin tips caused this?

I had never ridden a snowboard through the 90's and had a pair of Salomon 1080's. This was almost 15 years ago....

 

[billski]

Ramblings

A few rambling thoughts

mdp - When you talk about a "fad", I think about a new product, hits with an initial bang, plateaus for a bit then tapers down to a small passionate crowd.(Beanie babys.) Now it becomes a niche. I'm hearing now that telemarking is the next boom. I'd wager it goes through the same cycle. The difference with tele is that it was around long before the current increase in interest. I suspect people embracing the idea of "getting into the woods", and the resort's support of slack-country skiing becomes a natural extension.

The cool thing from a resorts point of view, fad or no fad, there is pretty much zero infrastructure change necessary. Equipment inventories for resorts and ski shops simply split.

From the demographic report I saw a couple years ago, boarder participation has leveled off, but is not decreasing.
If you look at an age vs. participation chart, you'll find it increases steeply from age zero until the mid 20s. When people hit their 30's, there is a precipitous drop as so many people begin families. This continues to age 50 and then participation goes back up, but never to the level of the 20 YO's. During the "procreation stage" women's participation drops off dramatically, while men's participation drops to perhaps a half of what is was before.

Snowboarders should follow the same curve as a general assumption. So it's about time, 10-15 years out now that many of the early adopters may be dropping out for family reasons. While I somewhat agree with the "fad" hypothesis, there is something to be said for lifestyle.

Economics clearly has had an impact. Not only is skiing/boarding expensive, but those under 25 by and large are having an extremely difficult time finding any job, let alone one that pays reasonably. Well, if mom and dad are willing to pay for your time on the slopes, wouldn't you go along.

What I'm painting is a scenario of many moving parts.

I read an interesting article in the Globe today where resort developers are becoming more and more persuaded that nost people don't come to just ski and ride. Many, many people look at skiing as a destination vacation. They are there to do other things too, like eat out a lot, go to shows, go for sleigh rides. I could argue particular demographics , geographic niches or small operators, but I do sense the whole orientation of the sport is changing.

The first time I visited Sugarbush, perhaps 20 years ago, my impression was "this is a skier's mountain." (There were no boarders at the time). It had the vibe that everyone was there to ski. It doesn't feel that way any longer.

If one postulates that a large percentage

Over the past few years, woods skiing has become acceptable to resorts and attractive to customers.

 

[octopus]

Boots are nice. I also have talked with vdk03 here who swears on a powder day you just can't beat the feeling of being on a board. I don't know that because I've only done powder on skis (and love it!) but I can see more of an appeal on a wide open piste with powder on a board.

i'll bring you a board to try, maybe sugarbush?

 

[BenedictGomez]

Economics clearly has had an impact. Not only is skiing/boarding expensive, but those under 25 by and large are having an extremely difficult time finding any job, let alone one that pays reasonably.

This is an excellent point, the <25 unemployment rate is sickeningly high (though that should be hurting both sports, not just snowboarding).

 

[goldsbar]

Keep your skis firmly planted on the snow (no jumping), ski only on trails (no glades, trees or boundary line skiing) and avoid terrain parks and you'll have pretty good idea of what skiing was like back then. Boring!

Remember it all to well. Some places didn't even allow bumps (ski patrol putting polls in, hah!). No thanks.

 

[goldsbar]

It does feel like there are significantly less riders than skiers over the last few years, but it's not like I'm out there counting. As much as it just never felt right to me (did on season on a board), skiing owes a huge debt to snowboarding. Ski design innovation was almost nil. Now there's to much! We'd still be skiing on 200cm skinny skis with barely any sidecut.

 

[ss20]

I've noticed a huge drop of snowboarders just this season. I'll ski a few terrain park laps everywhere I go, and I've noticed that the makeup of the park is 50/50 between skiers and riders.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I've noticed a huge drop of snowboarders just this season. I'll ski a few terrain park laps everywhere I go, and I've noticed that the makeup of the park is 50/50 between skiers and riders.

I dont think that represents a decrease in snowboarders, so much as the realization that skis are actually cooler/better than snowboards for serious park junkies. That's the "irony" I referenced earlier.

And I'd go a bit farther, and say that a tipping point has been breached where it's more like >50% skiers in the park.

 

[Smellytele]

Keep your skis firmly planted on the snow (no jumping), ski only on trails (no glades, trees or boundary line skiing) and avoid terrain parks and you'll have pretty good idea of what skiing was like back then. Boring!

I skied in the 90's (early and late) and skied trees and glades every chance I got. There were bump runs at every ski area I went to. Terrain parks on the other hand were few and far between. A couple places had jumps and a very few had half pipes.

 

[C-Rex]

It does feel like there are significantly less riders than skiers over the last few years, but it's not like I'm out there counting. As much as it just never felt right to me (did on season on a board), skiing owes a huge debt to snowboarding. Ski design innovation was almost nil. Now there's to much! We'd still be skiing on 200cm skinny skis with barely any sidecut.

For sure! Many innovations to skis came from snowboarding. Shaped skis, rocker, "magne-traction" edges, all started out on snowboards.

I think a big part of why a lot of younger people are skiing is that it's easier to learn. (tougher to master, of course) Kids are pansies these days.

I also think that a lot of skiers have a quiver of skis. Many have rock skis, race skis, powder skis, etc. Most snowboarders have one board. Many skiers also seem to have the attitude that their gear will make them better. Skiers definitely argue the finer points of ski design much more than snowboarders. I think this leads to more frequent equipment replacement with skiers.

I also agree that at some mountains, and especially in the backcountry, skiing has many advantages like poles, the ability to skate, etc. But besides flat land performance, there are other instances where I think I would have felt much more comfortable on skiis. At Breck last year, we hit a couple of the bowls when the snow was basically choppy, wind-blown styrofoam. Having only one edge to dig in was nerve-racking. If I slid out, there would be no stopping until the bottom. My friends on skis seemed much more comfortable. It was the first time I had ever even considered learning to ski. Now it's on my to-do list. I might give it a whirl when we're out in Tahoe next week.

That said, I LOVE snowboarding! Surfing the earth. I think the fact that it's such an unnatural motion makes it very satisfying to do well. Riding in powder is especially awesome and while snowboarding in the woods is definitely more difficult than skiing, that's part of the thrill. Sometimes when I say how hard a section was, my friends suggest that I try skis and it wouldn't be so hard. They don't seem to get that that's not the point. I'm not looking to make it easier. The challenge is part of the fun. I take pride in riding stuff that my friends on skis find difficult.

 

[Cheese]

I skied in the 90's (early and late) and skied trees and glades every chance I got.

Well, I'll use Attitash as an example for those that don't remember.

Attitash had a trail called Highway that cut through Grandstand, Moat, Liftline and Whitehorse. That cut basically created upper and lower versions of these trails but more importantly created a lip for some great air opportunities with clear visibility of the landing below. That didn't matter as "no jumping" signs were posted and ski patrol would position themselves for easy ticket clipping of offenders. If you wanted to jump on the mountain, you paid to join the Freestyle program and then were only allowed to jump on the 3 man made kickers. The kickers were mainly for inverted aerials. There were no jumps created for the old school 80s tricks and worse, jumping on marked trails was grounds for losing lift privileges.

Tree skiing was a little cut through the woods that the kids would create and follow. It wasn't a powder run but more of a tracked out tight washboard adventure for the little ones. Once the ski patrol found it, bamboo poles were placed in an X blocking it and again, grounds for losing lift privileges.

Glades? I don't have a trail map from the 90s, but I remember nothing of the sort. More likely there were warnings that you were in the White Mountain National Forest and you were to respect that by remaining on the marked trails.

Today Attitash has an entire trail devoted to public jumping. They have a park staff that paints the lips, measures the angles of each jump and frequently supervises the landing zones for safety. Rather than bulldoze the jumps the groomers carefully manicure the takeoff and landing zones. They've cut a groove in the earth that fills with snow to create a half pipe. They make additional snow in the half pipe and spent considerable money on a Pipe Dragon grooming attachment specifically to cut the edges of the pipe. They've got marked glades on their trail map and unless they're roped, you're welcome to ski through the trees with no danger of losing lift privileges.

That's just one ski area but it should clearly show a change in what's allowable fun. I welcome this change and yes, credit the snow boarders for breaking so many of the 90s rules that areas had no other option but to compromise.

 

[C-Rex]

I'm pretty impressed that this thread has gone 4 pages and all the posts are respectful and intelligent. Maybe we all CAN get along!!

 

[Cheese]

I'm pretty impressed that this thread has gone 4 pages and all the posts are respectful and intelligent. Maybe we all CAN get along!!

Well I let your "Rocker" comment go even though it was Shane McConkey skiing powder on water skis in Alaska that spawned reverse camber.

 

[drjeff]

From my own personal observation and perspective. Kids these days, bot male and female, generally speaking like terrain parks. While a snowboard may be a bit easier/quicker to pick up the general technique of turning and getting down the hill on than a pair of skis. In the park setting, having both feet able to move independently of each other for balance purposes has to be a plus for someone learning and using a park.

Purely speaking from the perspective of seeing kids (I'll call kids say age 15/16 and under) who are the future of our downhill snowsliding sport, what I see first hand over in the parks at Carinthia at Mount Snow these days is a mix of say 2/3rds -3/4ths skiers to 1/3rd - 1/4ths boarders. Just yesterday that had a age 12 and under comp at Mount Snow called the Grommet Jam. They had 57 participants - 40+ were on skis.

Now if you look at the "20 something" generation in the same location, the ratio is flipped most days (although not as wide a gap as it used to be a few years ago). I feel that as the terrain park era has evolved over the last decade or so, what used to be almost an exclusively snowboard environment has now become one where for the average park user, it's a bit easier (and hence more "fun" for them) on 2 skis vs. on a board.

Also as an observation, I rarely see any boarder on a true carving board in hard boots anymore. Used to see those on a much more frequent basis, and as someone who really enjoys and appreciate some serious carved "trenches" that some folks can lay down, I miss seeing those in greater numbers on the hill these days

 

[fbrissette]

Also as an observation, I rarely see any boarder on a true carving board in hard boots anymore. Used to see those on a much more frequent basis, and as someone who really enjoys and appreciate some serious carved "trenches" that some folks can lay down, I miss seeing those in greater numbers on the hill these days

I have not seen a true carving board in the past 5 years. I also see less and less true carving skis for that matter.

 

[Cheese]

Also as an observation, I rarely see any boarder on a true carving board in hard boots anymore. Used to see those on a much more frequent basis, and as someone who really enjoys and appreciate some serious carved "trenches" that some folks can lay down, I miss seeing those in greater numbers on the hill these days

Although I do board on occasion I haven't yet clicked into an alpine board. It has always been a mystery to me where these guys/girls go to learn how to carve. Every single carver I've ever watched was absolutely fantastic, digging trenches and dragging body parts on every turn. Impressive to watch, but where are the beginner/intermediate carvers?

 

[AdironRider]

True carving snowboards are next to impossible to find these days. I rock a Salomon Burner which is regularly cambered, but these days most companies dont even make them.

Rocker is a good tool in the right situation, but in others its not. I think that might play a role in sales, but not the full extent.

 

[billski]

I have not seen a true carving board in the past 5 years. I also see less and less true carving skis for that matter.

Hmm. So technical boarding isn't important? It's just brute strength? The very few people who carve when boarding are a beauty to behold. Why no carving boards? Too hard? I see way more boarders side-slipping it down the steeps than skiers. What's that all about?

 

[dmc]

Hmm. So technical boarding isn't important? It's just brute strength? The very few people who carve when boarding are a beauty to behold. Why no carving boards? Too hard? I see way more boarders side-slipping it down the steeps than skiers. What's that all about?

Carving is just not my idea of fun... I've done it... I have the gear.. It's not hard... it's just different..

I don't want to be locked into a hard edge.. And I don't like hard boots and plates unless I'm climbing..
I know all you skiers think it's so cool to see someone doing what you do - but if everyone carved - it would suck..
It would be like all skiers making big turns all over the mountain..

With my setup I can carve when I want to and switch and not have to set an edge all the time...

I see skiers side slipping steeps too... And with 2 edges instead of one...