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More news on apparent decline in snowboarding / increase in skiing

jaywbigred

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From my own personal observation and perspective. Kids these days, bot male and female, generally speaking like terrain parks. While a snowboard may be a bit easier/quicker to pick up the general technique of turning and getting down the hill on than a pair of skis. In the park setting, having both feet able to move independently of each other for balance purposes has to be a plus for someone learning and using a park.

Purely speaking from the perspective of seeing kids (I'll call kids say age 15/16 and under) who are the future of our downhill snowsliding sport, what I see first hand over in the parks at Carinthia at Mount Snow these days is a mix of say 2/3rds -3/4ths skiers to 1/3rd - 1/4ths boarders. Just yesterday that had a age 12 and under comp at Mount Snow called the Grommet Jam. They had 57 participants - 40+ were on skis.

Now if you look at the "20 something" generation in the same location, the ratio is flipped most days (although not as wide a gap as it used to be a few years ago). I feel that as the terrain park era has evolved over the last decade or so, what used to be almost an exclusively snowboard environment has now become one where for the average park user, it's a bit easier (and hence more "fun" for them) on 2 skis vs. on a board.

Also as an observation, I rarely see any boarder on a true carving board in hard boots anymore. Used to see those on a much more frequent basis, and as someone who really enjoys and appreciate some serious carved "trenches" that some folks can lay down, I miss seeing those in greater numbers on the hill these days :(

I think you can still ride an edge and carve on "regular" snowboards with normal snowboard boots. This weekend, at Campgaw Mountain, of all places (a county-owned NJ hill with ~250 vertical feet), there was a kids snowboard slalom race going on, and they were laying down absolute rails. I saw maybe two or three sets of carving boards with hard boots, but most were on more normal gear and were riding awesome arcs, even at age groups 7-8. So fun to watch.

As a 33 year old skier who grew to love skiing even during its uncool period, I think the only explanation that makes sense is the twin-tip, park ski evolution, which itself is a product of snowboarding! But I concur DrJeff's earlier comments re: Carinthia and so forth.

I think there is much more crossover and unity between the formerly very distinct skiing and snowboarding cultures. Much more blending. Which I like so much, it makes the mountain experience so much better, more brotherly (sisterly).

That being said, my 13 year old cousin just switched to snowboarding and did make some "skier" jokes when he and I were riding together at Shawnee (PA) this weekend. It saddened me; I thought his generation might have missed that.
 

dmc

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Well, I'd say that a lot of the snowboarders on these forums are just a bit more dedicated than your average rider. So you guys don't count. :razz: I really want a split, but first I need to get my friends to buy into doing some hiking/skinning for turns. I don't think it'd be as fun, or safe, if I went by myself.

http://www.splitboard.com/

I've splitboarded all over the place.. Get one and go to the golf course and learn how to use it.. Breaking it down... Putting skins on.. using the heel televators... Biggest problem with people that split is they don't practice transition..
 

C-Rex

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I've been all over that site, but thanks for the advice. I actually have a golf course near my house that has some good hills and would be perfect. As long as I can get out there without getting arrested for trespassing.
 

BenedictGomez

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Is this because of their ability to side slip narrower sections?

That's a tight-trees snowboard plus for sure. For instance, last year at Jay Peak, I was with some friends (I'm the only skier) and they slipped into a steep narrow section sideways to enter some beautiful trees that were pretty virgin due to entrance difficulty. I couldnt enter that way, because the trees were way narrower than my 179s. I was looking at it with an....."ummmmm" sort of look, lol.

As for the rest, DMC answered it pretty well. Only thing I'd add (and this is for very tight trees/unmarked stuff) is the snowboarder presents a slightly smaller downhill profile.
 

Cheese

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It has to do with having less to deal with - imho... All I have is a one deck.. No extra ski and poles...

I point that deck where I want to go and it goes there.. If i need to switch for some reason I can do that as an extra tool in the box.. If I fall i don't lose my board which is nice...

Blind spot has nothing to do with it... I face down the falline... I can look left or right..

I can tear up trees all day long... Tight and steep... VT or Wyoming..

Hell - we even rode trees in Kashmir that if we stopped of fell we'd risk being attacked by monkeys... and I HATE monkeys...

I've never seen you ride so I won't deny you can handle your board.

I've got twin tips so could technically "switch" but more often than not the pace in the trees would not allow for such a move unless I've slowed or come to a stop.

Ejecting from my skis and poles may be inconvenient to recover but at that point I want to be able to assume a small fetal position in order to glance objects rather than stopping suddenly because my board(s) got hung up on them.

When I think of tight New England trees I think of a black or double black mogul run where chances are the people skiing it or riding it correctly are basically zip line bumpers. Some days there's fresh, some days there's corn and most days it's tracked out hard pack bumps, trees and troughs. Like you, these zip line bumpers are going to be shoulders across the hill and facing down the fall line. There's no choice since slower upper body movements will only prevent quick knee and foot reactions and cause problems.

We've all seen plenty of skiers zip line moguls in competitions. Ski poles aren't a nuisance, they're an advantage for setting rhythm and keeping correct body position. However, I personally have never seen a boarder zip line moguls at any kind of speed. I've never seen a boarder score highly in a bump competition. Most of the boarders I witness on steep mogul terrain are either traversing multiple moguls or riding their heel edge down through the troughs. This isn't what I consider good technique in the trees but perhaps I'm just a biased skier. If mogul runs don't translate to tree runs for you then I think you've found far more wide open trees that haven't been bumped up from skier and rider traffic and don't have random debris which forces quick turning. It's this type of tree skiing and it's correlation to mogul skiing that I felt was not boarder friendly. Again, I haven't seen you ride so am basing this opinion solely on those boarders I've witnessed in the trees and bumps.
 

jaywbigred

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When I think of tight New England trees I think of a black or double black mogul run where chances are the people skiing it or riding it correctly are basically zip line bumpers. Some days there's fresh, some days there's corn and most days it's tracked out hard pack bumps, trees and troughs. Like you, these zip line bumpers are going to be shoulders across the hill and facing down the fall line. There's no choice since slower upper body movements will only prevent quick knee and foot reactions and cause problems.

We've all seen plenty of skiers zip line moguls in competitions. Ski poles aren't a nuisance, they're an advantage for setting rhythm and keeping correct body position. However, I personally have never seen a boarder zip line moguls at any kind of speed. I've never seen a boarder score highly in a bump competition. Most of the boarders I witness on steep mogul terrain are either traversing multiple moguls or riding their heel edge down through the troughs. This isn't what I consider good technique in the trees but perhaps I'm just a biased skier. If mogul runs don't translate to tree runs for you then I think you've found far more wide open trees that haven't been bumped up from skier and rider traffic and don't have random debris which forces quick turning. It's this type of tree skiing and it's correlation to mogul skiing that I felt was not boarder friendly. Again, I haven't seen you ride so am basing this opinion solely on those boarders I've witnessed in the trees and bumps.

I've seen a handful of boarders ride moguls in the zipper with speed. Very few, but it can be done. I am a decent zipperline bump skier, and I skied one day with a friend's friend from Austria who was a snowboarder. He could freaking shred the moguls, all zipper, faster than I could
 

dmc

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I've never seen you ride so I won't deny you can handle your board.

I've got twin tips so could technically "switch" but more often than not the pace in the trees would not allow for such a move unless I've slowed or come to a stop.

Ejecting from my skis and poles may be inconvenient to recover but at that point I want to be able to assume a small fetal position in order to glance objects rather than stopping suddenly because my board(s) got hung up on them.

When I think of tight New England trees I think of a black or double black mogul run where chances are the people skiing it or riding it correctly are basically zip line bumpers. Some days there's fresh, some days there's corn and most days it's tracked out hard pack bumps, trees and troughs. Like you, these zip line bumpers are going to be shoulders across the hill and facing down the fall line. There's no choice since slower upper body movements will only prevent quick knee and foot reactions and cause problems.

We've all seen plenty of skiers zip line moguls in competitions. Ski poles aren't a nuisance, they're an advantage for setting rhythm and keeping correct body position. However, I personally have never seen a boarder zip line moguls at any kind of speed. I've never seen a boarder score highly in a bump competition. Most of the boarders I witness on steep mogul terrain are either traversing multiple moguls or riding their heel edge down through the troughs. This isn't what I consider good technique in the trees but perhaps I'm just a biased skier. If mogul runs don't translate to tree runs for you then I think you've found far more wide open trees that haven't been bumped up from skier and rider traffic and don't have random debris which forces quick turning. It's this type of tree skiing and it's correlation to mogul skiing that I felt was not boarder friendly. Again, I haven't seen you ride so am basing this opinion solely on those boarders I've witnessed in the trees and bumps.

Yeah... I really don't see trees as moguls.. At least good trees..
Tree's do get bumped in a sense... But you lose the tops where I like to ride if there's a tree there.
In trees - I look for the straightest line always - a chute.. I can traverse across until i find it - i did the same when i skied too
I can ride bumps... I can turn fast when I need to. I don't always like it - but it can be done... In REALLY steep trees like Pavalacini at A-Basin... Even if you wanted to side slip you'd just fall over because of steepness and there not being a lot of room in the rut.. I ride the trees in the Catskills. Can be tight as hell and open like a cathedral... Bushwacking required...
Mushroom Chutes at Jackson are awesome because you get rock and tree all at the same time plus steep and narrow.. :)
I've ridden them a bunch...


And when i say poles are a pain - I mean just another thing to get caught in tight trees... I used to compete in bumps before I started riding full time - i get it... :)
 

dmc

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That's a tight-trees snowboard plus for sure. For instance, last year at Jay Peak, I was with some friends (I'm the only skier) and they slipped into a steep narrow section sideways to enter some beautiful trees that were pretty virgin due to entrance difficulty. I couldnt enter that way, because the trees were way narrower than my 179s. I was looking at it with an....."ummmmm" sort of look, lol.

As for the rest, DMC answered it pretty well. Only thing I'd add (and this is for very tight trees/unmarked stuff) is the snowboarder presents a slightly smaller downhill profile.

Yeah... Jay is insane.. If you can do a little smart bushwacking you can be in some nice stuff... We were outdoing out tele friends last time we were there.. Because on the dh profile and the fact we can duck lower and contort ourselves... haha...
 

dmc

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I've been all over that site, but thanks for the advice. I actually have a golf course near my house that has some good hills and would be perfect. As long as I can get out there without getting arrested for trespassing.

haha.. hope not..

but yeah - practice your transition.. Even at home it's good to practice.. But better outside in the snow.
We do it up at Hunter.. Take the lift up... Do a transition - skin into the woods and practice a couple and skin back...
 

dmc

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I've seen a handful of boarders ride moguls in the zipper with speed. Very few, but it can be done. I am a decent zipperline bump skier, and I skied one day with a friend's friend from Austria who was a snowboarder. He could freaking shred the moguls, all zipper, faster than I could

It can be done.. i just don't like it - but I can do it... To me - zipperline moguls are a skier creation.. Just not into it. Not where my heads at on the hill.. Having come from a mogul skier background I have the idea of what it takes to do... So it's not that tough.. Tough thing is keeping stamina..
 

planb420

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The casual skier or rider will go less often, and this leaves the mountains for more dedicated enthusiasts.

My impression based on the average skill level of snowboarders I see vs skiers is that there are more skiers who see their sport as a way of life, and more snowboarders who just like to go once in a while.

.

Just wanted to chime in as a Boarder...its deff my way of life as I'm out most every day. I also can rip anything you put in front of me be it a terrain park, double black diamond, moguls, glades, BC, groomers and I do it all with the style that only a true Boarder can bring :) You can ask many skiers in this forum, I'm sure they would back me up. It just takes a truely dedicated individual to master the art of snowboarding (I have been sharpening my skills for over 20 years, and I'm still no master) the problem I think was that the rebel mentality drew in too many weekend warriors that wanted to be cool but did not have the time to put into becoming good, thus diluting the sport and making us all as a whole look bad. But now as the upswing in twin tip rocker skis comes around I am seeing this trend in sking. There seems to be a lot of snotty, snarky little kids in the park just slip sliding the steeps and rolling over lips rocking their fav Line Skis. Most of these kids are lost on how to properly exicute a carve on a steep or navigate the glades. Overall I just think there is too much emphasis put on park riding by kids before they learn how to actually ride, thus creating sloppy bad habits. These habits are only re-enforced when they finally land a trick and think to themselves "well that worked that time so it must always be right" and this applys to both the skier and boarder. Not trying to start a war just pointing out an observation I have made over the years as someone who averages 80 days a season. With that said I dont think I'll ever stop boarding because of 2 reasons, First I love how it was something defferent to do while I was younger (yes I fed right into the rebel aspect) and how it meshes with my skate style in the off seasons, but most importiantly I admire all the greyhairs (70+ ers) I see strap into their boards each day and rip a line down, and hope that one day I can still be shredding the gnar at that age. REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE, but skiers are cool with me.
 

planb420

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We've all seen plenty of skiers zip line moguls in competitions. Ski poles aren't a nuisance, they're an advantage for setting rhythm and keeping correct body position. However, I personally have never seen a boarder zip line moguls at any kind of speed. I've never seen a boarder score highly in a bump competition. Most of the boarders I witness on steep mogul terrain are either traversing multiple moguls or riding their heel edge down through the troughs. This isn't what I consider good technique in the trees but perhaps I'm just a biased skier. If mogul runs don't translate to tree runs for you then I think you've found far more wide open trees that haven't been bumped up from skier and rider traffic and don't have random debris which forces quick turning. It's this type of tree skiing and it's correlation to mogul skiing that I felt was not boarder friendly. Again, I haven't seen you ride so am basing this opinion solely on those boarders I've witnessed in the trees and bumps.

Just because you havnt seen it dosnt mean it hasnt happened.....moguls.jpgMogul Comp running a zipper downglades.jpgRiding some nice glades bumped up...and last but no least DOMINATING a slalom race against boarders and skiers...dont say it cant be done, someone prob already hasgold.jpg
 

planb420

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Do they have multiple board they use throughout the season for different conditions or types of riding, or do they just have 2 or 3 boards because they didn't sell the old one when they bought a new one?

I have 5 boards but 3 of them are unofficially retired. I've never sold a board. I still have all of them since I first started. One day they will make an awesome display in my man cave. The two I use are similar, but I keep the newer one for good conditions and the older one for days with likely rock encounters.


I personally have 4 at the moment, My Nug (rides it ALL/Daily Driver) My Roadsoda (Park), My X8 (Deep Carve/Race), My B Custom (Urban/Rock/ Unknown BC) and they all get use from time to time...and that makes mantaining them all a real pain in the ass :)
 

KD7000

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I've been snowboarding for 24 years now, and I'm getting a bit tired of sitting down in the snow. :) I did start skiing again about 5 years ago, and thoroughly enjoy that too.

I only own 1 board. I had one season where I thought about keeping my old board for a rock deck, but knew it would just wind up sitting around. Selling it off helped pay for other goodies, too.

I'd be pretty upset if I didn't get a solid 5 years out of my current board. Too damn pricey to replace!

Boarding in deep powder is one of the greatest feelings ever. Sooooo much fun.
 

octopus

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dmc, have a spliff on the way, first split and thanks for the advice. i'll prob head to one of the small nelsap hills around here and practice.

moguls are for skiers. in the trees, if i can find the right line its like a snake run at a skatepark, so fun.
 

C-Rex

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I personally have 4 at the moment, My Nug (rides it ALL/Daily Driver) My Roadsoda (Park), My X8 (Deep Carve/Race), My B Custom (Urban/Rock/ Unknown BC) and they all get use from time to time...and that makes mantaining them all a real pain in the ass :)

I really want to try a Nug sometime. I've heard they are super fun. But I'd say guys like you are far from the norm. I ride 20-30 days a year, so it's really not necessary for me to have a giant golf bag of boards. Although that would be seriously cool...
 

octopus

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nugs are fun, until you hit solid ice trails. i have way too many snowboards
 

jaytrem

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No sure why, but as of 2 years ago, Southern California still had many many many more boarders than skiers. If I had to estimate I'd say 95% at Mountain High and probably 60%-75% at Big Bear. Maybe something to do with a lot of them being surfers? Would love to go back in a few years and see if the percentages have changed.
 
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