My quick Haystack story

[MrMagic]

http://forums.alpinezone.com/12610-haystack-club-anyone.html?highlight=haystack+membership

Earlybird was $60K, $8,500/year after that.

Ouch.

ahh very good, thank you/

 

[arik]

Haystack reopening would be good for Mount Snow

Sometimes having a second mountain in an area could be a good thing. For example I don't think I would visit the mad river valley as much if it was just one mountain. That is why I go there over other places because I can ski Mad River for a day.

I agree with the above and don't think that the "competition" of Haystack re-opening would be bad for buisness at Mount Snow. It would make the area more attractive for people to choose to vacation there, instead of somewhere else in the Northeast. There are many other areas in Vermont with multiple great ski resorts in close proximity. So even if visitors only ski one day of their weekend trip at Mount Snow and one day at Haystack that's one more day at Snow than if those visitors would have gone to another area (like Stratton/Bromley) for their trip. Haystack has a different appeal than Mount Snow and so I don't think people many people would choose to ski every day at Haystack. More visitors to the area increases hotel, restaurant, and ski shop buisness. It also makes the area more attractive for second home buyers and real estate developers. I think Haystack was charming as a run down bare bones budget kind of place, a small uncrowded area similar to B-East, and feel that as an ultraluxury destination as envisioned by the Haystack club it would have felt dissapointing. I mean if your loaded why not fly out west to ski a real mountain?

 

[snowman]

So what's to keep it from being a "private" ski club that sells $10 memberships?

I live near a dry town that recently had a golf course built. They were able to get around the liquor license issue for their dining room - which is quite good - by making it a private club w/ a $10 "social" membership, which basically allows you to order a drink at the bar.

They do the same thing in Utah on a grander scale.

 

[JimG.]

I think Haystack was charming as a run down bare bones budget kind of place, a small uncrowded area similar to B-East, and feel that as an ultraluxury destination as envisioned by the Haystack club it would have felt dissapointing. I mean if your loaded why not fly out west to ski a real mountain?

I totally agree with this statement.

Not at all a shot at Haystack; I've been there a few times and liked it. And I think I liked it mostly because of it's unpretentious, small area feel.

 

[drjeff]

I mean if your loaded why not fly out west to ski a real mountain?

They were marketing Haystack, not as the ONLY destination that the owners would ski at, but for the really well off that thay were targeting as homeowners/club members, they could have The Haystack club as their private weekend ski getaway for when they weren't jetting out West or to Europe for a few days of skiing. One of the actual marketing features was a helipad that would allow the NY area executive to chopper on in for the weekend and be at Haystack in an hour or so from the NY metro area.

As for the advantage of a second area close to Mount Snow for regional marketing purposes, lets not forget that Haystack has had multiple previous owners and even went through a temporary NELSAP'ing and then re-opening back in the early 80's. So while it's a nice complimentary ski area addition to the Deerfield Valley, the vast majority of the lift ticket buying population when looking at that area will be Mount Snow, Mount Snow, Mount Snow. Look also over the years in that general vicinity at places like Hogback, Prospect, Dutch Hill and even Carinthia before Mount Snow acquired it, atleast in Southern Vt, it seems that size really does matter

 

[arik]

haystack will be good for mount snow

people will buy slopeside condos at Haystack to have that kind of property cachet and they and their friends/family will still often ski at Mount Snow, but first there needs to be enough water for both mountains

 

[MrMagic]

people will buy slopeside condos at Haystack to have that kind of property cachet and they and their friends/family will still often ski at Mount Snow, but first there needs to be enough water for both mountains

hmmm I Dont know how true this really is, even when haystack was open, most of the condos that are there "powder horn" and "dutchman" complexes were empty most weekends. I would think knowing of haystacks past with questionable or limited operation during winter people will still look to buy somewhere else. The only saving grace for the condo owners through haystacks up and downs has been the near proximity of Stratton. Magic, mt snow and even bromley. But perhaps you are right, that people will buy slope side, for the sole purpose of “owning” as ski town house and have skiing be second to ownership and luxury.

 

[snowman]

I think Pico would have made a much beter victim for that type of operation. There's much more infrastructure in that area that the pretentious would require to keep them entertained and the mountain is a real mountain.

 

[drjeff]

I think Pico would have made a much beter victim for that type of operation. There's much more infrastructure in that area that the pretentious would require to keep them entertained and the mountain is a real mountain.

Maybe the last thing that a large percentage of that target market wants is a real mountain. I think its safe to say that many of the folks that the haystack Club were targeting as members would have been more interested in the ammenities than the mountain's reputation. Hence why they bought the Haystack Golf Club and were planning to build an equestrian center, a large kids center, and were going to have 24 hr concierge service availbale to members.

In a sense its like the Deer Valley effect. The market that Deer Valley targets, especially for real estate is much, much, much more likely to say "My place is at Deer Valley" rather than "I hit Daly Bowl in untracked thigh deep powder!" They were hoping for the same at Haystack, with the phase "I'm a member at Haystack" being more significant than "I ripped big GS arcs down Gandolph" From a marketing standpoint that target group they were going for is so different than the target group that standard ski area marketing focuses on that you almost can't even think about them in the same thought process

 

[skibum1321]

I think Pico would have made a much beter victim for that type of operation. There's much more infrastructure in that area that the pretentious would require to keep them entertained and the mountain is a real mountain.

There is already the Bear Creek Club that is between Kmart and Okemo. I don't know how much room there really would have been for another private club so close. I can't imagine that there are a whole lot of skiers willing to dish out that kind of cash for a small mountain with mediocre skiing.

 

[mlctvt]

Maybe the last thing that a large percentage of that target market wants is a real mountain. I think its safe to say that many of the folks that the haystack Club were targeting as members would have been more interested in the ammenities than the mountain's reputation. Hence why they bought the Haystack Golf Club and were planning to build an equestrian center, a large kids center, and were going to have 24 hr concierge service availbale to members.

In a sense its like the Deer Valley effect. The market that Deer Valley targets, especially for real estate is much, much, much more likely to say "My place is at Deer Valley" rather than "I hit Daly Bowl in untracked thigh deep powder!" They were hoping for the same at Haystack, with the phase "I'm a member at Haystack" being more significant than "I ripped big GS arcs down Gandolph" From a marketing standpoint that target group they were going for is so different than the target group that standard ski area marketing focuses on that you almost can't even think about them in the same thought process

I totally agree. For most of these people skiing is secondary. My wife and I own a condo between Mount Snow and Haystack and most of our neighbors are not avid skiers. Yes they ski but they’re just not as active as most Alpinezoners. Believe it or not many only use their condos/houses for the holiday periods and they’re empty the rest of the year! Even many seasonal renters don’t use the places that much. That’s very strange to me, I can’t see paying that much for the ownership or rental and not use it, but that’s exactly what many do. I guess you could call these people posers? Or maybe they have so much money they can afford to pay for a place just to have it available whenever they get the whim to ski? I think this the type of owner Haystack was looking for. The same type of person who pays $8K- $10K per year for a country club membership and plays golf a couple of times a year.

 

[roark]

I totally agree. For most of these people skiing is secondary. My wife and I own a condo between Mount Snow and Haystack and most of our neighbors are not avid skiers. Yes they ski but they’re just not as active as most Alpinezoners. Believe it or not many only use their condos/houses for the holiday periods and they’re empty the rest of the year! Even many seasonal renters don’t use the places that much. That’s very strange to me, I can’t see paying that much for the ownership or rental and not use it, but that’s exactly what many do. I guess you could call these people posers? Or maybe they have so much money they can afford to pay for a place just to have it available whenever they get the whim to ski? I think this the type of owner Haystack was looking for. The same type of person who pays $8K- $10K per year for a country club membership and plays golf a couple of times a year.

Not really a perfect analogy since until quite recently those condo owners probably looked at their condos as an investment and expected them to appreciate. Golf club memberships probably aren't viewed as an investment.

 

[JimG.]

Not really a perfect analogy since until quite recently those condo owners probably looked at their condos as an investment and expected them to appreciate. Golf club memberships probably aren't viewed as an investment.

But there will always be investors in any kind of market. There are always buyers/sellers.

I think you make a mistake if you think that people with lots of money don't buy ski/vacation homes in down markets just to have them for a week or two each year. Those people have alot of money to start with exactly because they are shrewd investors. NOW is the time to snap up some undervalued vacation real estate from someone who can marginally afford it. And that's exactly what rich folks do.

My parents own 2 condos in Beaver Creek, one at Poste Montane and another at Park Plaza. Yup, two. And they're not rich by any means. Those condos are used a total of 2 weeks each.

 

[Newpylong]

The Witches area was fun at the 'Stack. RIP

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

I would be a little careful about generalizing. My experience working at Bear Creek (although in it's infancy), was not entirely with status seeking wind bags with more ooney than common sense. There were a number of the first few members who were retirees that really enjoyed being able to ski uncrowded terrain in peace. Bear Creek was pretty bare bones at that point. Now that the club house is built and some of the mega houses have been built, I imagine the balance might have shifted.

The Dear Vallets of the world serve a great purpose for my ski world. For every Escalade parked there, there's once more space for my pick up, and for every one windbag in the lodge at "The club" (because we all agree, very few of them ski any amount of time) there one less in the way went I head to the men's room to return the coffee I rented.

 

[JimG.]

I would be a little careful about generalizing. My experience working at Bear Creek (although in it's infancy), was not entirely with status seeking wind bags with more ooney than common sense. There were a number of the first few members who were retirees that really enjoyed being able to ski uncrowded terrain in peace. Bear Creek was pretty bare bones at that point. Now that the club house is built and some of the mega houses have been built, I imagine the balance might have shifted.

The Dear Vallets of the world serve a great purpose for my ski world. For every Escalade parked there, there's once more space for my pick up, and for every one windbag in the lodge at "The club" (because we all agree, very few of them ski any amount of time) there one less in the way went I head to the men's room to return the coffee I rented.

Are you characterizing my parents as status seeking wind bags with more money than common sense? When I was younger I would have agreed, but as I get older I see they were pretty smart. Essentially, my parents go "skiing" for the down time and amenities. If they ski from 10am to 2pm that is a long day for them. And there are ALOT of folks like that.

I didn't think about retirees, but you make an excellent point. Many of them are not rich or status obsessed.