New boot "stance" question

[BenedictGomez]

Oh really? Did they happen to mention that FIS has changed the rules this year and racers will be demanding far more from their boots than they did last year since they're on longer, straighter skis with a much larger radius? So, you can either believe the race community about the advantages of boot stiffness and forward lean or you can believe the boot manufacturers that are catering to the general public who all think they're "aggressive" skiers.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread debating stiffness.

But I also dont think it's useful to compare FIS equipment with recreational ski equipment. That's a bit like comparing the stock Toyota Camry on the highway with the Toyota Camry stock car at the Daytona 500 - radically different things.

The point of my OP wasn't whether forward lean is good or not, it is whether I might have too much in these boots. While it seems that I am in A1 on these boots as opposed to A2 in the old pair, if I were to intentionally lean far forward in these boots like a ski jumper, I feel like I would tip over. My non boot expert thinking is that's probably not good/correct.

Also, if the boot manufacturers are catering to a general public that wants to think they're "aggressive skiers" like you're suggesting, wouldnt they be building more and more boot models that have the forward leaning of a serious race boot? The trend I've been reading about in non-race boots, (i.e. boots for 99% of people) is exactly the opposite, that they seem to be building them with angle degrees more upright the last few years than they have in the past.

Honestly, from the diagram you posted I could ski in the A row or the C row without too much trouble. If your "decently advanced boot" falls in the B row, I would never return to the shop that suggested such a boot. But that's just me ...

When I look at that C row, it seems to me the skier is default placed into the backseat based on the spine angle and balance point resultant from the lean being so severe. Not as bad as row B where there's a "reverse lean", but I wouldnt want to have to ski like the C row either.

 

[wa-loaf]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread debating stiffness.

But I also dont think it's useful to compare FIS equipment with recreational ski equipment. That's a bit like comparing the stock Toyota Camry on the highway with the Toyota Camry stock car at the Daytona 500 - radically different things.

The point of my OP wasn't whether forward lean is good or not, it is whether I might have too much in these boots. While it seems that I am in A1 on these boots as opposed to A2 in the old pair, if I were to intentionally lean far forward in these boots like a ski jumper, I feel like I would tip over. My non boot expert thinking is that's probably not good/correct.

Also, if the boot manufacturers are catering to a general public that wants to think they're "aggressive skiers" like you're suggesting, wouldnt they be building more and more boot models that have the forward leaning of a serious race boot? The trend I've been reading about in non-race boots, (i.e. boots for 99% of people) is exactly the opposite, that they seem to be building them with angle degrees more upright the last few years than they have in the past.



When I look at that C row, it seems to me the skier is default placed into the backseat based on the spine angle and balance point resultant from the lean being so severe. Not as bad as row B where there's a "reverse lean", but I wouldnt want to have to ski like the C row either.

A1 and A2 are in the same forward lean. The A2 position is just when you are trying to stand up straight with the correct forward lean. It sounds like you were in the B row in your old solomons. I used to do the C row since I always just set my boots up with the max forward lean they could achieve.

 

[BenedictGomez]

A1 and A2 are in the same forward lean. The A2 position is just when you are trying to stand up straight with the correct forward lean. It sounds like you were in the B row in your old solomons. I used to do the C row since I always just set my boots up with the max forward lean they could achieve.

Correct, I could have explained it better, but there is no picture for my last few pairs of Salomons, which I would call AB, somewhere between the A picture and the B picture, but closer to the A picture. The B1 picture looks ridiculous though, I think the artist went a a little bit overboard as I dont think it's humanly possible to ski like that!

I've read so much about forward lean and ramp angle in the last few days, I'm amazed at how much there is to consider. For instance, I have pretty muscular calves, which apparently act as a bit of a human body "built-in" forward lean in the boots. I never realized how complicated this can be.

 

[Cheese]

The B1 picture looks ridiculous though, I think the artist went a a little bit overboard as I dont think it's humanly possible to ski like that!

B1 is still very common on the bunny hill. A fairly upright boot with a very soft flex rating makes this an easy posture to fall into. I'm sure there's an instructor or two on this board that have spent a few lessons trying to break a novice from this position.

Slight variations to B3 were sadly very common back in the 70s with a set of Jet Sticks mounted to the back of our boots. Knees pinned together, sit back and whip the tips around.

I understand your analogy of FIS to NASCAR but considering all the fads that have come and gone in the ski industry, I find it very helpful to take a look at what high performance skiers are using and then throttle back accordingly. This allows a buyer to beware of gimmicks like plate bindings and rear entry boots as examples.

I too was as guilty as wa-loaf of adjusting my boots for max forward lean. Now I have them less forward and add the extra lean dynamically while skiing. Bottom line, I think you're really going to enjoy your new boots regardless of how awkward they are in the lift line.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Slight variations to B3 were sadly very common back in the 70s with a set of Jet Sticks mounted to the back of our boots. Knees pinned together, sit back and whip the tips around.

What are Jet Sticks? I'm a bit younger, and sadly too young to have enjoyed the wild and crazy 1980s apres-ski scene.

I understand your analogy of FIS to NASCAR but considering all the fads that have come and gone in the ski industry, I find it very helpful to take a look at what high performance skiers are using and then throttle back accordingly. This allows a buyer to beware of gimmicks like plate bindings and rear entry boots as examples.

From what I've been reading the last few days, this has crept into race skiing too. While they still clearly have sizable forward lean, that supposedly it's noticeably less than ~5 years ago? And apparently last year Lange decreased the forward lean in all of their available models.

I do agree that gimmicks exist in sporting goods (in spades), the worst offender probably being the golf industry that attempts to convince people they need a brand new $390 driver EVERY year (which IMO hurts people's game if anything), but I dont think a reputable industry stalwart like Lange would make such a bold move as a "gimmick". If interested, here's a few articles I've read about this phenomena, whether fad or not.

http://skiingbusiness.com/11556/uncategorized/2012-13-ski-boot-preview-lange/

http://www.footpro.com.au/index.php?dir=view&page=prod_innovationread&id=MTg=

I too was as guilty as wa-loaf of adjusting my boots for max forward lean. Now I have them less forward and add the extra lean dynamically while skiing. Bottom line, I think you're really going to enjoy your new boots regardless of how awkward they are in the lift line.

I wish I shared your enthusiasm, but after several hours of research, I'm now more puzzled than when I started! lol I guess I'll just have to see for myself to understand (or not). I do admit that when I stand in those boots, I think to myself, "these will be awesome for steep mogul trails" and "mogul trees", but I just dont see why this substantial forward lean would help on intermediates, groomers, most diamonds, or frankly anything less than the more challenging of the double-black diamonds?

So to be sure and have peace of mind, I'm going to bring these boots into the local Surefoot here in town and have them look at the angle; they told me it would only be about $20 to take a look at my stance and do a quick adjustment to the forward lean provided there isnt any major alteration or new materials needed, etc...

 

[BenedictGomez]

So as an update, after a bunch of days on snow with these boots I'm very happy with them and their performance/comfort. The "too much forward lean" got better after 1 or 2 uses, and disappeared altogether after perhaps day 3.

So, I dont know if it's a question of the molded plastic getting worked in or the rear boot liner getting packed in a bit, but somehow the excess lean I was worried about disappeared very quickly. Given the ridiculously low price I paid for new boots, this may go down as the best ski equipment bargain of my life. They were just intended to be used for 1 year as "disposable ski boots", as I was going to pay the $$ to get something custom next season, but I may just keep them another season or two.

 

[hammer]

On my third pair of boots...first ones were way too big, second ones (Technicas) fit pretty well but did have too much forward lean, and the ones I have now (Nordicas) are more upright but after a few seasons have a bit too much room above the instep.

Still have yet to hit the brand that gets it all right for my feet.

 

[Cheese]

So as an update, after a bunch of days on snow with these boots I'm very happy with them and their performance/comfort. The "too much forward lean" got better after 1 or 2 uses, and disappeared altogether after perhaps day 3.

So, I dont know if it's a question of the molded plastic getting worked in or the rear boot liner getting packed in a bit, but somehow the excess lean I was worried about disappeared very quickly. Given the ridiculously low price I paid for new boots, this may go down as the best ski equipment bargain of my life. They were just intended to be used for 1 year as "disposable ski boots", as I was going to pay the $$ to get something custom next season, but I may just keep them another season or two.

Great news! Comfortable feet can be the difference between a good day and bad.