Percent and 66 degrees at Denton

[RISkier]

Here's a link discussion percent grade and degrees of slope.

http://www.home.eznet.net/~vraguso/Book_2/Snow.html#11.4.1%20Percent%20Grade%20(Slope%20Angle)

These folks really challenge the idea that ski slopes are anywhere close to as steep as we think they are in terms of degrees. I'm betting whoever did the web page at Denton was told the slope was 66% but simply wrote 66 degrees. FWIW, if the slope at Denton was a 66% grade it would be 33.4 degrees -- damned steep based on the information in the above link. I claim no knowledge of the actual pitch of ski any ski slopes (either measured in degrees or % grade). That said, someone on another site was calculating estimates of the slope (in degrees) of many of the steepest trails in the East, and the numbers just don't seem that steep.

 

[JimG.]

That said, someone on another site was calculating estimates of the slope (in degrees) of many of the steepest trails in the East, and the numbers just don't seem that steep.

It is for this reason that these discussions are ultimately meaningless because nothing seems as steep as it is until you are actually standing on top ready to push off. That's when the pucker factor comes into play.

 

[loafer89]

At first I did not realize what this ski area was, but then Ski Denton in Coudersport came to mind. I believe that this slope may be steep, but come on, it's in Pennsylvania, how steep can it be?????

I recall skiing at Montage years ago, and the double black diamond trails had caution signs with flashing yellow warning lights :smash: :blink: so I take steep skiing in PA with a grain of salt.

 

[JimG.]

I believe that this slope may be steep, but come on, it's in Pennsylvania, how steep can it be?????

I recall skiing at Montage years ago, and the double black diamond trails had caution signs with flashing yellow warning lights :smash: :blink: so I take steep skiing in PA with a grain of salt.

You guys are awfully harsh on PA ski areas...I feel like dmc, I'm game to at least check it out before I trash the state over it.

And regarding the flashing caution signs, I'm all for it anywhere I happen to ski. In fact, the sign ought to have the silhouette of a flailing beginner on it with a red circle and line through it for emphasis. Beginners don't belong on expert terrain.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

You guys are awfully harsh on PA ski areas...I feel like dmc, I'm game to at least check it out before I trash the state over it.

And regarding the flashing caution signs, I'm all for it anywhere I happen to ski. In fact, the sign ought to have the silhouette of a flailing beginner on it with a red circle and line through it for emphasis. Beginners don't belong on expert terrain.

I don't think he's being harsh, he's just finding it hard to believe and saying so. There have been lots of mountains kicked around in here from time to time including my favorite. For me it just sparks interesting debate.

Personally I try to stay away from putting down anyone’s favorite mountain. Everybody has their reasons for where they ski or ride.

 

[freeheelwilly]

This from RISkier's link above:

Most ski areas have very few slopes that exceed 25% (14.04º) on average. The ones that do are considered super expert. Some of the steepest ski trails in north America average 30% (16.70º) on average, with sections as steep as 38%-45% (20.80º-24.23º), but usually no greater. Where a trail section exceeds 35% grade, it is usually referred to as a headwall. Downhill ski racers may call it a jump.

I dunno. I think this is wrong. I think what is TRUE is that most ski slopes don't exceed 25 degrees and that some of the steepest average 30 degrees. The headwall at Tucks is anywhere from 45 to 55 degrees (not % slope). Steep inbound skiing is anything above 25 or maybe 30 degrees. Pull out an old protractor: 14 Degrees is nothing!

And I don't mean to trash PA skiing at all. I just don't believe Denton has a 66 degree slope (at least not sustained. Maybe the back side of some roller but so what? That's just for air time.)

 

[ctenidae]

JimG's got it- Pucker Factor (PF) is the key.

PF= [(DP)(SF)(TF)+ ToD(1/FF)]/ SA(1-BM)

Where:
PF= Pucker Factor
DP= Degrees Pitch
SF= Snow Factor
TF= Tree Factor
ToD= Time of Day, an inverse relation- higher number for earlier in the day (an attempt to capture the effect of early morning coffee)
FF= Friend Factor (more friends yields a higher FF)
SA= Skiing Ability (real)
BF= Beer Factor

 

[JimG.]

I don't think he's being harsh, he's just finding it hard to believe and saying so. There have been lots of mountains kicked around in here from time to time including my favorite. For me it just sparks interesting debate.

Personally I try to stay away from putting down anyone’s favorite mountain. Everybody has their reasons for where they ski or ride.

Maybe harsh was the wrong word. I find it hard to believe too, but stranger things do exist. I'm a "show me" type person...I'll go check it out myself before saying something like "come on, this is PA, how steep can it be?"

As far as mountains that get kicked around, Hunter is one of the leading kickees, and sometimes for good reason. I defend my home turf because, as you said, there are reasons I like Hunter.

You'll never hear me dispute someone who says Hunter has a lack of good intermediate terrain because that's true and it indicates that person spent some time there and learned about the hill before commenting. But when someone complains that Hunter is "always icy" I envision a person who went there once on a boilerplate day and who won't go back, but they'll complain and categorize Hunter as a place with poor snow conditions. And that simply isn't true.

So, like you, I don't make any comments about other ski areas unless I've been there at least once (for terrain issues) or several times (for general conditions or atmosphere).

 

[loafer89]

I am 100% in agreement with you Jim regarding Hunter, the worse the rap about the mountain, the better it is for skiers in the know.

Hunter has top grade snowmaking, good grooming, challenging terrain and a very dependable season.

Regarding P.A skiing, I have been to quite alot of them and the only real challenge that I have found so far was on some double blacks at Jack Frost, but the trails were very short. Other than that Snoooorrrreee.

Ski Denton is 2,400' at the summit and 1,750' at the base with a vetical drop of 650' according to the White Book Of Ski Areas. I guess that Avalanche is the trail in question on the trail map??

Regarding the flailing skier signs, I nearly fell off of my chair when I read that one.

 

[JimG.]

Regarding the flailing skier signs, I nearly fell off of my chair when I read that one.

You know, I made that comment with the beginner's well being at heart. I used to think it was entertaining watching a beginner cartwheel down an expert slope, but my injuries really changed my attitude. Now it's painful to watch.

Getting hurt is no fun and we ought to look out for beginners who may not know any better.

 

[loafer89]

I agree that it is not fun to injure oneself will skiing, but the idea of such a sign is funny. The warning signs at Montage were comical, but I guess that they were needed when the rest of the mountain is flat as a pool table.

I could do without the flashing yellow lights though :flame:

 

[dmc]

My theory... And I'm SURE ya'll want to here my theory....
is that every mountain naturally is suited towards different kinds of skiers...

One mountain may be more suited to beginners. So chances are it's off the more agressive skiers RADAR - as in - "who cares"...

Another may have kick ass intermediate terrain.. But bores the crap out of experts.. Experts will now call that mountain "boring".. So the intermediates get upset cause what the think is great, get's dissed...

The big problem is when you have a mountain more geared for agressive, advanced skiers with limited intermediate options.. Cause the biggest group of people are intermediates and if they get limited to only a couple trails... They trash those trail quick by their numbers... And then they go home and complain about crowds and ice... Becuase all they see is a couple trails and they really don't have the skillz yet to fully enjoy the expert stuff..

Thats the problem with Hunter... If you can't fully enjoy the tough trails - your stuck skiing Hellgate, or Belt to get to the bottom and it gets ugly.
I NEVER ride the Belt Parkway and only hit Hellgate early..

 

[RISkier]

This from RISkier's link above:

Most ski areas have very few slopes that exceed 25% (14.04º) on average. The ones that do are considered super expert. Some of the steepest ski trails in north America average 30% (16.70º) on average, with sections as steep as 38%-45% (20.80º-24.23º), but usually no greater. Where a trail section exceeds 35% grade, it is usually referred to as a headwall. Downhill ski racers may call it a jump.

I dunno. I think this is wrong. I think what is TRUE is that most ski slopes don't exceed 25 degrees and that some of the steepest average 30 degrees. The headwall at Tucks is anywhere from 45 to 55 degrees (not % slope). Steep inbound skiing is anything above 25 or maybe 30 degrees. Pull out an old protractor: 14 Degrees is nothing!

And I don't mean to trash PA skiing at all. I just don't believe Denton has a 66 degree slope (at least not sustained. Maybe the back side of some roller but so what? That's just for air time.)

I tend to agree, a 25% grade just doesn't seem like it would be very steep at all, 25 degrees, OTH, is farily steep. Stowe says Goat or Starr (not sure which off hand) is 37-38 degrees, they say Gondolier, which is a blue, averages 20 degrees. I have no idea of the veracity of their numbers but they don't come close to what's posted on the link in my original post. I didn't post this to bash Denton or any other ski area. The trail in question at Denton may be as steep or steeper than any lift served terrain in VT -- I have no idea. But it isn't 66 degrees like the web site says -- it might be 66% which would still be very steep but plausible. I think a lot of ego gets involved when guestimating the steepness of slopes that created that pucker factor. Kind of like all those folks who average 300+ yards off the tee when golfing.

 

[loafer89]

I would be tempted to ski this place if it where not so far away. The 650' vertical drop is nothing to write home about, but alot of eastern ski areas have that or less and are still interesting.

I wonder how often Avalanche is open, they must have to make quite alot of snow on it to open it. The White Book says this place averages 100" per year, nothing outstanding.

 

[loafer89]

Here is a scan from the White Book of Ski Denton with the mountain photo/trial map overlay:



Triple diamond sking in P.A :blink:

 

[tirolerpeter]

Steeps?

I wonder why it is so difficult to get definitive information regarding slope angles/grades. I think I will take along a fairly compact "inclinometer" that I have used in building projects and take some "angle measurements" of some of the slopes that I visit. Now, I just have to remember to do it.

BTW like Loafer89 and JimG I like Hunter but, I only go there mid-week. Yes, there is a shortage of intermediate terrain, but then I usually stay on the blacks and double-blacks depending on snow conditions. I think they have done a nice job in the last couple of years in that they used to have only a very crowded green and the rest were all diamond bump runs from the top. Now they seem to groom a couple of the blacks so that icy bumps or a boring green are not the only way down. I do like that they leave the mountain ungroomed for at least a day after a dump. Last season I caught a day in late March that left a real 12" of powder on Hunter. That was one of the few times that I experienced snow that felt like "Utah Powder" here in the east. One other memorable day happened one Sunday at Mt. Snow after they got a 17" dump on a Saturday night. I got to Hunter that day right at opening, and it was GLORIOUS. For at least the first two hours, I was finding untracked stashes. Then, I met a "local" who took me to a couple of spots (like through a hole in a fence) that made me feel (at least for some very short distances) as if I had stepped off at Alta or Brighton.