Rebirth of a hardtail

[bvibert]

oh - yeah... LOL - I guess I was thinking of Harley terminology, HT = Hardtail, ST = Softtail... Thanks for the correction...

Ha, yeah I didn't think of that. In that case you're correct, but the Softtail terminology didn't seem to transfer over into the MTB world.

 

[Trekchick]

Never hear of the rebound as being a major advantage. A full suspension will absorb terrain better resulting in a smoother ride. In doing so it keeps the rear tire in more constant contact with the terrain for overall better traction. The rear end of an HT tends to "skip" around especially at speed. The advantages of an HT include lighter weight and better climbing ability, although I've never felt pedal bob on my FS to be much of a problem. In fact, I never use the lockout on climbs for the reason I just mentioned - i.e. better traction.

I took a short lesson at the local bike shop when I got my FS.

One of the things that he taught us when hopping over a curb stop was to utilize our clipless pedals and rebound........
put down pressure just prior to the hop, then utilize the rebound and clipped in feet to hop over the curb stop.


FYI, concrete curbs hurt worse than logs, when you mess up.

 

[Marc]

Ha, yeah I didn't think of that. In that case you're correct, but the Softtail terminology didn't seem to transfer over into the MTB world.

I do remember "soft tail" and "rear suspension" both being used here and there when full suspension first arrived on the scene.

And I think then there was at least one that was called "soft tail" by the manufacturer, that would be Moots softail that has a low travel suspension, maybe an elastomer? It has no pivot- it's travel depends on the elastic deflection of the titanium chainstays (the whole frame is titanium).

Here ya go:

 

[Marc]

I took a short lesson at the local bike shop when I got my FS.

One of the things that he taught us when hopping over a curb stop was to utilize our clipless pedals and rebound........
put down pressure just prior to the hop, then utilize the rebound and clipped in feet to hop over the curb stop.


FYI, concrete curbs hurt worse than logs, when you mess up.

I actually have my rear shock damped enough that rebound probably only hinders my ability to bunny hop with my clipless... good bunny hop technique, though, should be achievable and probably performed in most instances without using your clipless.... that's just asking to have a pedal come out and land your crotch on the stem or top tube.

If there's so little damping on the shock that it lets you rebound with momentum after you've compressed it with your weight... I don't know if I could ride like that... seems like you'd be bouncing out of control.

 

[bvibert]

aside from a rear brake alignment issue. The disc mount tabs haven't been faced, I thought I'd be alright because of the CPS mounting system that the Avid's use (it's meant to make up for non perfectly aligned disk tabs). However, the paint that's on the tabs makes the adapter stick out too close to the rotor, so I can't align the caliper correctly. I also have a warped rotor (that I haven't had much luck straightening) which was actually hitting the washers on the mount since it was so close. I stopped to re-align it once (while someone else was changing a flat) and bent the rotor a bit with my hands another time and it was alright for the rest of the ride. I'm gonna file of the paint on the mounting tabs, which should fix my alignment issues.

I did a little bit of filing on the disc mount tab last night and the alignment is much better now, the mounting washers are nowhere near the rotor. I got it lined up pretty good, but I still have a bit of a wobble in that rotor. I need to spend a little bit of time with a couple of adjustable wrenches to get that straightened out. I was working on the bike in the driveway last night with a hiking headlamp on, not exactly the best environment to be trying to true a rotor.

 

[Trekchick]

I actually have my rear shock damped enough that rebound probably only hinders my ability to bunny hop with my clipless... good bunny hop technique, though, should be achievable and probably performed in most instances without using your clipless.... that's just asking to have a pedal come out and land your crotch on the stem or top tube.

If there's so little damping on the shock that it lets you rebound with momentum after you've compressed it with your weight... I don't know if I could ride like that... seems like you'd be bouncing out of control.

I don't have a ton of rebound, and this lesson was IMO more about learning to appreciate what a FS offers. The tip that I learned was derived out of my question to the dweeb who was teaching us......."Since the FS is so much heavier, why do people say that it will help on log hops and down hills?"
The tips on utilizing rebound were his answer to that question.

That being said...I'm waaaaay, not the expert in this area......

I'm hoping to spend more time on my FS this summer and will take your advice into consideration.

 

[gorgonzola]

not sure about all the dampening and rebound mumbo jumbo but i definately preload/release the suspension for going over obstacles and drops, especially when approaching with any speed. its definately cheating a bit but who's counting, might as well take advantage of the suspension!

 

[Greg]

not sure about all the dampening and rebound mumbo jumbo but i definately preload/release the suspension for going over obstacles and drops, especially when approaching with any speed. its definately cheating a bit but who's counting, might as well take advantage of the suspension!

I can see preloading the fork, but never thought about the rear.

 

[Grassi21]

The bike looks smooth Brian.

 

[Marc]

not sure about all the dampening and rebound mumbo jumbo but i definately preload/release the suspension for going over obstacles and drops, especially when approaching with any speed. its definately cheating a bit but who's counting, might as well take advantage of the suspension!

Damping is actually a pretty simple concept, a lot of people misunderstand, probably because of all the confusing terms used in bicycle suspension.

Simple spring motion is just that... think if you had a loose coil spring attached to the ceiling, extended it and let it go. If it were a perfectly elastic spring, it would remain in motion forever. That is undamped spring motion.

Of course, no spring is perfectly elastic, and eventually comes to a rest due to energy absorption of the system.

Still though, undamped springs are generally not very useful for suspension.

Think of a car suspension that has really old shocks or struts. You do the compression test where you lean on one corner and let go. If the shocks/struts need replacing, the car will bounce up and down for a while. Shocks and struts are just dampeners... devices that oppose the motion of (damp) the spring.

Coil shocks on bikes have oil dampeners similar to car suspension. Most of the time the amount of force resisting the motion of the spring is called "rebound." A fast rebound applies little resistive force resulting in more "bobbing" after the initial compression. A slow rebound applies a lot of resistive force resulting in less "bobbing" and very damped motion.

Preload is a term typically used to describe the adjustment of the sag of the suspension... which is achieved by changing the spring rate, by either adding pressure to an air shock or changing the length of a coil.

I think most people compress the suspension before a jump naturally, as part of the jumping motion. There's a lot to discuss behind the physics of that, but it might bore some people around here

 

[JD]

I took a short lesson at the local bike shop when I got my FS.

One of the things that he taught us when hopping over a curb stop was to utilize our clipless pedals and rebound........
put down pressure just prior to the hop, then utilize the rebound and clipped in feet to hop over the curb stop.


FYI, concrete curbs hurt worse than logs, when you mess up.

I really disagree with this technique. For your suspension to act like a pogo stick, the suspension has to be tuned so it will ride like one, which is the opposite of the whole point of supension. Preloading the suspension is something that just happens, not something you should have to think about doing. Clippless pedals have created the ability to bunny hop badly and get away with it, much like shape skis let people carve w/o great technique.

 

[Greg]

Clippless pedals have created the ability to bunny hop badly and get away with it, much like shape skis let people carve w/o great technique.

I was riding my wife's bike around the yard the other day (platforms) and I was happy to realize I still knew how to bunny hop without clipless. :lol:

 

[bvibert]

I doubt I could bunny hop without clipless, mostly because I've never really tried.

 

[Trekchick]

I'm glad this thread has evolved the way it has. It's given me a lot to ponder and work on.

Marc, I'm never bored with learning how to ride more efficiently.

 

[JD]

You def. jump off of your feet, but pull the bike up with your arms mainly. I mean, you end up using your feet to, but in kind of a different way. You'll point your toes down and push back on the pedals. It's the tension between your feet pointing back and your hands holding the bar out in front of you that allows you to pick the bike up. Not by lifting straight up with your feet or bounding the bike off it's suspension who's rebound is so undamped that it springs off the gound, Because then it will sprin g off of every root and rock instead of sucking it up....hard to tell if that makes any sense.

 

[MRGisevil]

B-dizzle, I know I've been riding the drama llama lately and acting a royal punk (come on, you all think I'm friggin' hysterical and love my antics), but I'll hop off for a minute and say I'm wicked impressed! Great job restructuring this thing, man. If I took my bike apart it'd probably look like it had been ravaged by a pack of cougars with a palet for metal.

Anyway, back on the drama llama. Everyone's smelly but me!!!

 

[o3jeff]

B-dizzle, I know I've been riding the drama llama lately and acting a royal punk (come on, you all think I'm friggin' hysterical and love my antics), but I'll hop off for a minute and say I'm wicked impressed! Great job restructuring this thing, man. If I took my bike apart it'd probably look like it had been ravaged by a pack of cougars with a palet for metal.

Anyway, back on the drama llama. Everyone's smelly but me!!!

Will you and your trash talk be showing to ride your drama llama Sundayhttp://forums.alpinezone.com/56043-mtb-sunday-5-31-09-a.html? We think your favorite 2knees will be there.

 

[bvibert]

B-dizzle, I know I've been riding the drama llama lately and acting a royal punk (come on, you all think I'm friggin' hysterical and love my antics), but I'll hop off for a minute and say I'm wicked impressed! Great job restructuring this thing, man. If I took my bike apart it'd probably look like it had been ravaged by a pack of cougars with a palet for metal.

Anyway, back on the drama llama. Everyone's smelly but me!!!

Thanks, it means a lot that you'd break from riding the drama llama just for me.

 

[bvibert]

Will you and your trash talk be showing to ride your drama llama Sundayhttp://forums.alpinezone.com/56043-mtb-sunday-5-31-09-a.html? We think your favorite 2knees will be there.

Good question Jeff, what say you drama llama??

 

[MRGisevil]

you're tripped out of your head if you think I'm getting up at 5:30 on a Sunday to go riding with you smelly losers!

That being said........may bee.