Saddleback Maine for Sale!

[SIKSKIER]

If I'm spending 12 million I want to know where the other 300 vertical is.

 

[salsgang]

NECN did a TV News story on Saddleback Maine and the potential sale. They were there the same day we were there. If you have been following this thread nothing really new but they have some pretty good powder skiing shots! Worth a couple of minutes.

I embedded the video on my blog post about the Saddleback Ski Sale.

 

[Angus]

Good Lord in heaven, that's a bloodbath. Unless they view the true value in the purchase to be the land they're retaining somehow.

$40mm - would be interesting to see the accounting. Does that include the original purchase price?

bulk of the land is staying with the Berry's - I didn't bother to go back and re-read but I think it was only 400 acres of land they were selling, keeping 7,600 acres plus as earlier posters have said, there is likely an assumption of debt. remember I think wildcat only went for something like $2-3mm so that gives you some idea of the value of the ski ops.

I've spoken to someone who said they know a current NE ski area operator who had looked at the deal and didn't like the acreage split and whatever other terms were associated with the deal.

I know a big goal of the Berry's was preservation and conservation so this is may their way of limiting development - although I doubt Rangeley could realistically support a mega-resort.

 

[salsgang]

$40mm - would be interesting to see the accounting. Does that include the original purchase price?

bulk of the land is staying with the Berry's - I didn't bother to go back and re-read but I think it was only 400 acres of land they were selling, keeping 7,600 acres plus as earlier posters have said, there is likely an assumption of debt. remember I think wildcat only went for something like $2-3mm so that gives you some idea of the value of the ski ops.

I've spoken to someone who said they know a current NE ski area operator who had looked at the deal and didn't like the acreage split and whatever other terms were associated with the deal.

I know a big goal of the Berry's was preservation and conservation so this is may their way of limiting development - although I doubt Rangeley could realistically support a mega-resort.

According to Saddleback Management the new owners would not have an assumption of debt. I also believe that more land can be sold... the Berry's just had to start somewhere. They probably wanted to get an asking price up there that would get as many parties as possible interested.

There are a lot of options on the table. Outright sale, a partnership with new investor(s) or turning the ski area into a non-profit corporation. Will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[skibuff]

Wildcat had a negative cash flow of about $500k per year and is only 2.5 hours from Boston skis over 100,000 skiers and sold for $2m.
Saddleback looses probably over $1.5m per year without reinvestment capital..so likely it would take over $2m per year in cash subsidy to keep it going...that is why they are selling and how they invested $40m and are trying to sell it for $12m. It is worth less than Wildcat and likely to keep loosing $2m per year or more - especially if Boyne and CNL keep investing in Sunday River and Sugarloaf or decided to start getting aggressive on season pass pricing. Unfortunately, IMO it would take another Berry family who had $20 - 30m to "donate" to the cause of low cost skiing for it to be viable. Otherwise, it just make no sense for it to operate. Boyne and CNL would be the highest payer aside from another Berry Family, if neither shows up the place will be a great hike to trail system in the future....that is the only kind of non-profit that could work.....ponder this.....two thousand passholders splitting the $2m in annual losses would cost 1k per year per person...by far the most expensive ski experience in all of New England....and that is just the annual losses.....

Sorry to pour ice water all over everyones holiday hopes and wishes....

 

[Newpylong]

If Peaks was in better financial shape I would say they should go for it. That would be one pretty sweet pass.

 

[teqeeler]

Wildcat had a negative cash flow of about $500k per year and is only 2.5 hours from Boston skis over 100,000 skiers and sold for $2m.
Saddleback looses probably over $1.5m per year without reinvestment capital..so likely it would take over $2m per year in cash subsidy to keep it going...that is why they are selling and how they invested $40m and are trying to sell it for $12m. It is worth less than Wildcat and likely to keep loosing $2m per year or more - especially if Boyne and CNL keep investing in Sunday River and Sugarloaf or decided to start getting aggressive on season pass pricing. Unfortunately, IMO it would take another Berry family who had $20 - 30m to "donate" to the cause of low cost skiing for it to be viable. Otherwise, it just make no sense for it to operate. Boyne and CNL would be the highest payer aside from another Berry Family, if neither shows up the place will be a great hike to trail system in the future....that is the only kind of non-profit that could work.....ponder this.....two thousand passholders splitting the $2m in annual losses would cost 1k per year per person...by far the most expensive ski experience in all of New England....and that is just the annual losses.....

Sorry to pour ice water all over everyones holiday hopes and wishes....

I respectively disagree with your post.

You have really no basis of facts if you think saddleback loses 1.5 million, comparing them to wildcat and then subtracting 1 million is somewhat short sighted. There are many different variables that change the selling price. Your only going by skier visits, which doesn't tell the whole picture.
Saddleback has a bunch of condos, right there changes the financial situation. Saddleback very well could lose money running the ski resort operations but making up for it with condo's, real estate, the blue festival, marina, base lodge sales, season passes etc. Comparing the two is really mute i think.

Saddleback has better infrastructure then wildcat in snomaking, lifts, lodge etc. Not to rip on wildcat, love the place.
Wildcat is in the middle of the white mountain national forest, i believe they are much more restricted to future development as saddleback has much more potential in that area.
Saddleback needs a hotel built and that right there could add alot more skier visits, conferences etc.
Saddleback will not become a hiking mountain, I'm not sure if you have been there but it's only 15 mins from sugarloaf, sugarloaf does fine, so there is potential for them to be able to increase visits.

There are non profits that can run saddleback
check out this website Maine Winter Sports Center

This company could probably run saddleback and make it work as a non-profit. They have made northern maine the top cross country and biathlon place in america, all with in the last 10 years, that is saying quite alot especially if you have ever been to aroostock, much much more out of the way then saddleback. They have even got world cup events watched by millions of people in Europe and built stunning facility's up there, where talking alot of millions they have spent. They also operate a small ski hill, black mountain and invested nicely into that.
I'm sure they lose money on all the places, but have the finances to do something like this.
The people who started the MSC offered portland 20 million to build an arena.

i have no idea if there interested or if it would even work in this situation, but just throwing that out there that it can be done.

I think it is not a bleak as you make it sound. They might sell the mountain for 7 million who knows, but they will get more then 2 million for it. Doubtful it will be going anywhere and hopefully it can be taking to the next level or just keep it as it is, wouldnt mind either way.

 

[tipsdown]

Wow Skibuff, that was bleak...Saddleback may have it's challenges but comparing Saddleback to Wildcat is apples and oranges. As I said in a previous post.....with it's land holdings, Saddleback has more raw potential than any other area in the East. And there's your difference.

As Salsang pointed out, the new buyer will want and get (if Berry's are truly serious about selling) a large chunk if not all of the 8,0000 acres. Otherewise it's a raw deal and your theory holds more water. But most mountains don't spin a profit on the ski operation and Saddleback is no different. For them, they have to capitalize on true 4 seasons and offer a variety on non-ski options. Wildcat doesn't have that luxury.

 

[tipsdown]

Speaking of which.....there's a rumor going around up there that LL Bean may be interested. Anyone else hear that?

 

[Nick]

First I've heard of it. That would be interesting .. does LL Bean own any other physical resort type assets?

 

[tipsdown]

I don't believe so. However as someone on the thread pointed out earlier, they did look at Sugarloaf and Sunday River after ASC went belly up....

Saddleback seems to fit their vibe and model more than SR and SL....Definitely interesting, not sure how serious it is at this point but seems to be a good fit...

 

[tipsdown]

If I'm spending 12 million I want to know where the other 300 vertical is.

There's no conspiracy theory. The vertical is a true 2,000 ft as the South Branch Quad loads at 2120. You can't go by Google Maps however. It still has the old images (pre 2006?) where there was only a T bar line that loaded around 2280. That was removed and a quad was installed further down the mountain to expand the beginner area.

The only technicality is that lift service stops around 4020. The last 100 ft is hike-to. As a side note, permitted future development calls for a lift further down the mountain which would ultimately increase the vertical to about 2200 ft.

All mountains stretch as it as much as they can. Sugarloar claims 2820 but there's about 80 ft of hike-to snowfields. Their lodge is at around 1800 elevation and there's about 400 vert. below the base lodge. Don't get me wrong, Sugarloaf ski's long but if you take lift serviced elevation and subtract the "Base Elevation" your left with about 2300 vertical....

 

[deadheadskier]

First I've heard of it. That would be interesting .. does LL Bean own any other physical resort type assets?

They don't, but they do have their Outdoor Discovery Schools, which are fairly popular; especially the kayaking school near the home base in Freeport which has been expanded to several other locations around the country. IIRC the initial interest in Sunday River / Sugarloaf was a consideration to continue to expand their brand beyond retail.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/1000001692

If they could purchase Saddleback and leverage the opportunities for fishing on Rangeley Lake and the numerous other outdoor pursuits available in that region, it might work. Personally, I think a situation like Saddleback would make more sense than Sunday River / Sugarloaf did.

 

[riverc0il]

Allowing ski areas to claim official vertical based on hike to is ludicrous. By that measure, Stowe probably has most areas beat. Cannon could add on a bit if you want to hike to the tower. Bush could certainly tack on a few feet. Burke could go up to their tower. Etc. If Saddleback needs you to hike to ski their supposed 2000 vert then they ain't got it, plain and simple.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

As mentioned it's been rumored for months. IMHO Rangely has not embraced the idea of being a ski town. Many restaurants close after the summer. As mentioned, it's a popular snowmobile desitination in the winter. Last time I was there in late fall several restaurants were closing for the season and the folks I talked to had no interest in the town becoming a ski town. destination skiers are looking for the cute ski town with shops, nightlife and interesting restaurants for aprea-ski. Rangely has no interest in being that place. Even tho the resort is only 4 miles from Rangely, it felt isolated, not a real connection socially or economically between the two.

 

[riverc0il]

As mentioned it's been rumored for months. IMHO Rangely has not embraced the idea of being a ski town. Many restaurants close after the summer. As mentioned, it's a popular snowmobile desitination in the winter. Last time I was there in late fall several restaurants were closing for the season and the folks I talked to had no interest in the town becoming a ski town. destination skiers are looking for the cute ski town with shops, nightlife and interesting restaurants for aprea-ski. Rangely has no interest in being that place. Even tho the resort is only 4 miles from Rangely, it felt isolated, not a real connection socially or economically between the two.

Seems like the new owners will need to take a page from Jay. But without EB5 funds, that will be difficult. But they could get some basic low key "village" things going on mountain. Surprising that Rangely isn't embracing Saddleback's emergence as a great destination. That is a lot of low hanging revenue fruit in a bad economy. Obviously though, "it takes a village" as the saying goes, a few businesses trying to capitalize does not a ski town make.

Would be interesting if LL Bean picked it up, that seems like a really good fit and good opportunities for cross promotion and branding. The "LL Bean Resort" could be a massive driver and it gives Bean something interesting to cross market itself with to appeal to year round outdoors people in multiple sports/activities. Whether they could actually make a time off it or not...

 

[Edd]

I worked at LL Bean when I was a kid and my father did later. They sell cross country ski gear as opposed to downhill aside from whatever equipment crosses over both sports. Never cared for that.

I've heard this is because they encourage sports that tend towards self-locomotion but I have no idea if that's true. That would obviously change if they bought SB.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

LL Bean, worked there 2001-2005, does not sell alpine skis but does sell everything else alpine from ski helmets to ski boot bags. They are very into hunting and fishing, kayaking etc which fits well into Rangely's summer/fall activities.

Bean does do alot of stuff up at Baxter SP, guided trips and product testing. Rangely and Milinocket have alot in common. Gorgeous areas but that has not equated to big influx of tourist stuff. It amazes me that with a depressed economy due to paper mill closings Millinocket has made little effort to encourage developement. House prices are in the toilet, even before the 2008 recession. It's the gateway town to Baxter SP, an incredibly beautiful area.

What you might classify as micro-sprawl, Millinocket has a couple of motels on the road to I95, At Rangeley, just up the hill on your way to Saddleback there is a new convenience store and a Rite-Aid(?) plus a new motel that looks like one you would see off any exit of any interstate in the country.

Conversly, Greenville on Moosehead Lake who's ski area is basically DOA has been in the middle of a huge resort/second home development for 10 years by Plume Creek the mega huge timber company who happens to be the largest landowner in America.

One thing in common is that all 3 are primarily summer resort areas. Regarding Rangeley I get the impression that the snowmobilers and skier/riders are not exactly compatible winter groups.

IMHO I just don't see Saddleback as a large destination ski resort. Jackson Hole would have the same problem if not for the busy JH Airport. When I was out there the resort owner brought in Delta and United by quaranteeing/underwriting unsold seats. Without an airport, train or major highway. Build it, Saddleback has done a nice job there, but I doubt they will come. Anyone have any skier visit numbers the last few winters? Sugarloaf does around 250,000 but SR doubles that to 500,000. Pretty obvious which one is more financially successful.

 

[steamboat1]

The town of Rangely does not close in winter. It's actually pretty active.

 

[tipsdown]

Allowing ski areas to claim official vertical based on hike to is ludicrous. By that measure, Stowe probably has most areas beat. Cannon could add on a bit if you want to hike to the tower. Bush could certainly tack on a few feet. Burke could go up to their tower. Etc. If Saddleback needs you to hike to ski their supposed 2000 vert then they ain't got it, plain and simple.

I hear ya...But in Saddleback's case they've got More than 2k vertical ft. It's just that their current lift infrastructure doesn't support it.

Interesting article about Saddleback's history where it talks about a gondi line that was cut in the early 70's that was supposed to terminate just below the summit. It would have been just OVER 2,000 vertical ft, with the 3 top-bottom runs appropriately named Hook, Line, and Sinker. I think the new ownership should bring this idea back

http://www.pressherald.com/life/outdoors/snowed-under-at-saddleback_2013-01-06.html