Saddleback Meeting

[bdfreetuna]

Fixed grip chairs don't necessarily have to be that slow.

Question: Do detachable HSQ necessarily have to be more prone to wind holds?

I would not be less likely to visit Saddleback with a slow quad, but if they start having wind holds I'd think twice about making such a long trip up there without access to the mountain again.

 

[snoseek]

Man I'm just happy to hear this news. I hope it pulls in a profit enough to keep open.

I will say it's super cold up there. A fast lift would be much appreciated from me personally. I wish they had kept the tbar up high and dealt with the lower lift a long time ago.

 

[thetrailboss]

Some very good points that make the conversation interesting.

Let's be honest. No one wants 10+ minute chair rides anymore. And you can't realistically install a fixed grip, just to possibly move it later, because realistically there isn't another location at Saddleback that it would be needed.

The more I think of it, the more I am brought back to what I said what they want Saddleback to be--locals spot that is sustainable or a larger destination resort/locals place that has the potential to be bigger than it is now. I think that they are looking at the latter that is sustainable, hence the local "buy-in".

One example though of another kind of similar place in terms of location and market is Ski Discovery that I just visited in Montana. Hear me out.

https://www.skidiscovery.com/

Place started in '74 for the local mining communities. Mining ends, ownership falls into debt, sells to the current family who have over a period of time made various improvements using "hand-me-down" fixed grip lifts. They've turned a 1,300 or 1,400 vertical mountain with one side into a place with three (or four) different aspects, 88 trails, 2,400 acres, 2,380 vertical feet and a loyal following. No hotel, no big restaurants, no real estate. Just the ski area. They have laid the framework for a new base area on the back side to access the "hip" Philipsburg area. All triples and doubles, some older ones too. Max is 10 minute lift ride. It works, but again, probably a different strategy than here.

It was the biggest complaint about the Snowdon Quad. Too long, too cold... the masses cried and bitched, until finally we now have the Snowdon 6, and it's 5.5 minute ride. Killed 2 birds with one stone, as Nyberg was too stupid to either fix/update the Southridge Triple, or install a replacement immediately. The result being that it drastically changes how large numbers of skiers/riders now flow around the mountain, and the resort handles busy days much better.

I get your point, just don't think that Snowdon is the best example for many reasons, namely that it endured so long and was a back-up to the triple. Hell, Snowdon was also built from like two or three older lifts and was a weird frankestein lift. :lol: But yes, POWDR finally saw the light that this 30-or-so year relic needed to be replaced to move more traffic into this underused area and conveniently it solved both problems with "Frankenlift" living on in a different spot. :lol: Did that one lift make or break Killington? I don't think so. But it did help to repair some of their image issues and improve traffic.

Trailboss, remember riding the old double at Burke? Long and cold as I remember. Did turning it into the Willoughby Quad improve that experience? Not much, but it did help with lift lines... now today we are fortunate that they (by means of a truly generous soul) were able to install the MidBurke Express.

I'm not old enough to have skied the original Willoughby. :lol: The Quad certainly moved skiers, slowly but steadily. And, yep, it is a similarly central lift that is about the same length and certainly was a huge improvement.

Making the experience there pretty darn awesome in my eyes and experience. It's now back to being a place I truly love to go out of my way to be at. As a bonus, Burke can essentially operate, just running that one lift, and not to many ski areas can operate that way, or almost completely with just the two chairlifts. But once again, they have 2 chairlifts installed, that people will come out of their way to utilize even if some of the other amenities of the resort may not be top of the line. IF the Mid-BurkeX had never been installed... I have doubts that Burke would even be open today. At least not to the Public, maybe just in some capacity for BMA.

I remember us all saying that IF Willoughby was a HSQ that "for sure it would make this place grow" and attract attention. I was in that school too. Well, now 9 years later, I don't know if it was the silver bullet that we thought it would be. The skier days have gone up some, from what I understand, but not a whole lot. Of course there are a NUMBER of other factors at play including another fraudulent owner that pissed off folks, some bad winters, etc. And of course Kingdom Trails has played a HUGE role in making things four-season. Hell, the place is now much more of a summer destination than a winter one. :blink: The lift alone certainly makes it better for folks like me who, regrettably, are now only once or twice a year visitors, but has it driven more people to come? I don't know. Seems like the answer is "no". But Burke also was behind in terms of lodging, snowmaking, and amenities whereas SB may not be.

I just wonder if folks are doing the same here with SB by saying, "Jezum crow, a HSQ WILL bring more people" and be that silver bullet. If Burke is a lesson, that reasoning doesn't always apply.

Does anyone know if Crotched has "grown" in terms of skier and rider days AFTER adding their HSQ? That may be a better comparison because that was the "only" big change they made with that place in recent years.

Look at this example. Assuming they just install a HSQ in place of the Rangley double. What are you more apt to go ski: The SuperQuad/Timberline combo at Sugarloaf, or the Rangley Express/Kennebago combo? Terrain wise, it should be a no-brainer.

I think that is a good point, assuming that they market that to folks. That is an advantage.

Saddleback almost completely falls in the same category, as you can ski the majority of the hill off the one lift. Obviously Kenebago quads territory are going to encourage your expert and tree skiers to show up as well, but on a year like this, where there are days of only skiing the trails with snowmaking, one lift will get you by on mid-week days until the other terrain is ready for access.

Agreed.

Yep, gonna cost more, gonna be more maintenance, more electric ect. ect. It's a given. But like Burke, give me a REASON why to go back. It won't take much to make people happier than the offerings at Sugarloaf, and Sunday River is going to be fighting the same battle as other sideways resorts, with TOO many lifts to worry about.

We are talking ONE lift here, that is going to either make or break Saddleback forever. I hope they put in something that ensures success.

And I think you really highlight how important THIS issue can be for SB at this time. The signals they have been sending have been slow and conservative moves. I see one guy saying, "great, let's hope they survive", but these moves just keep things where they were and status quo. But with this resort, with its own unique set of factors, will this one decision to go HS make or break the place? It is hard to know. Certainly if you have $30 million or so in the bank, I think you really need to seriously consider making "that" move to HS for this lift to generate interest, break the status quo, and then to bring new folks in to see that there is so much more than this one lift. The up-front cost is more of an investment to say, "hey, we mean it and we are committed", rather than hedging.

Certainly good conversation and things to consider. Maybe Arctaris is reading.

 

[x10003q]

Yeah, this touches on what I was saying about "what" people will come to SB for--is it the terrain, the experience, the location? Would the HS lift be "the" thing that changes the equation in terms of attracting more business? I don't know.

If they took the new lift to the top (near the top of the Kennebego Quad), the lift would be about 6000 ft long. This would need to be a HSQ. Maybe a new line would allow for less wind holds. This would allow them to run all the good stuff on one lift.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

Man I'm just happy to hear this news. I hope it pulls in a profit enough to keep open.

I will say it's super cold up there. A fast lift would be much appreciated from me personally. I wish they had kept the tbar up high and dealt with the lower lift a long time ago.

Oh yeah, some really cold days. Most definitely a major brain cramp on replacing the t-bar before the double, but if I remember right, a lot of it had to do with making it easier/more accessible for the Boarders to get to that terrain.

 

[deadheadskier]

Man I'm just happy to hear this news. I hope it pulls in a profit enough to keep open.

I will say it's super cold up there. A fast lift would be much appreciated from me personally. I wish they had kept the tbar up high and dealt with the lower lift a long time ago.

Agreed. One wonders if they left the T Bar as is and replaced the Rangeley instead back in the day, maybe they wouldn't have had to close at all. The Rangeley and the terrain it serves is far more critical than the Kennebago steeps.

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[EPB]

Agreed. One wonders if they left the T Bar as is and replaced the Rangeley instead back in the day, maybe they wouldn't have had to close at all. The Rangeley and the terrain it serves is far more critical than the Kennebago steeps.

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Yeah that was an odd move. They bought a new drive for the double in the 2000s, too, which obviously cost $$$. I wonder if that drive gets repurposed since it's relatively new.

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[thetrailboss]

FWIW Liftblog.org still has the replacement as a fixed-grip quad and a new T-Bar for the other lift. No manufacturer yet. It obviously is still all up in the air.

https://liftblog.com/2020-new-lifts/

 

[jaytrem]

Discovery did try to buy the repo'd HSQ at Tamarack. Love that place!

 

[thetrailboss]

Discovery did try to buy the repo'd HSQ at Tamarack. Love that place!

Really? Interesting. They lost out to Brian Head IIRC for that lift.

 

[Hawk]

Fixed grip chairs don't necessarily have to be that slow.

Question: Do detachable HSQ necessarily have to be more prone to wind holds?

I would not be less likely to visit Saddleback with a slow quad, but if they start having wind holds I'd think twice about making such a long trip up there without access to the mountain again.

The general answer is yes. This is what the old head Lift Mechanic at Sunday River told me. There are several reason that they are prone to wind closures. First, because they have that mechanical grip system that requires maintenance to adjust the pressure and is more fragile and susceptible to slippage than the fixed mechanisms, the manufactures recommends that the lift not run if the chairs swing a certain distance back and forth. It causes irregular chair spacing and possibly failure in extreme conditions. Also the detachable quads have a shit ton of sensors that sense all kinds of things include cable tension and chair spacing. These tend to trip more in the wind forcing the operators to shut the lift down instead of stopping and starting the thing many time each hour.

 

[machski]

The general answer is yes. This is what the old head Lift Mechanic at Sunday River told me. There are several reason that they are prone to wind closures. First, because they have that mechanical grip system that requires maintenance to adjust the pressure and is more fragile and susceptible to slippage than the fixed mechanisms, the manufactures recommends that the lift not run if the chairs swing a certain distance back and forth. It causes irregular chair spacing and possibly failure in extreme conditions. Also the detachable quads have a shit ton of sensors that sense all kinds of things include cable tension and chair spacing. These tend to trip more in the wind forcing the operators to shut the lift down instead of stopping and starting the thing many time each hour.

Not to mention there is a maximum lateral chair swing allowance when chairs/cabins enter the terminal

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[machski]

Look, I know a whole bunch of folks think a HSQ for Rangley is best. I can see some attraction for that but me personally, I don't care what is there as it is just an access lift to where I want to spend my day at Saddleback. I also think you have to look at the situation and the signals Arctaris is sending: they want it to be a local area, sustainable within that model, they wanted/needed the Maine government loan backing action (IE, they weren't ready to fully leap in on their own). To me, this spells the most financially responsible lift going in factoring acquisition cost and long range operating costs. Given that, I would fully expect it to be fixed grip.

Someone mentioned extending Rangley to the Ridgeline, which would put it somewhere around 6000'. Now you are in the range of length where HSD lifts are more of an expectation in my mind. The problem with this idea is you spend all that money to probably watch your investment sit idle all too often due to wind issues with the new summit exposure. So that won't happen.

And comparing the old Slowdon quad is not fair, that lift was (still is in Southridge) horribly slow, even for a FGQ. They are normally a bit faster even without a carpet. The only FGQ I know that is that painfully slow is Aurora at SR.

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[EPB]

Look, I know a whole bunch of folks think a HSQ for Rangley is best. I can see some attraction for that but me personally, I don't care what is there as it is just an access lift to where I want to spend my day at Saddleback. I also think you have to look at the situation and the signals Arctaris is sending: they want it to be a local area, sustainable within that model, they wanted/needed the Maine government loan backing action (IE, they weren't ready to fully leap in on their own). To me, this spells the most financially responsible lift going in factoring acquisition cost and long range operating costs. Given that, I would fully expect it to be fixed grip.

Someone mentioned extending Rangley to the Ridgeline, which would put it somewhere around 6000'. Now you are in the range of length where HSD lifts are more of an expectation in my mind. The problem with this idea is you spend all that money to probably watch your investment sit idle all too often due to wind issues with the new summit exposure. So that won't happen.

And comparing the old Slowdon quad is not fair, that lift was (still is in Southridge) horribly slow, even for a FGQ. They are normally a bit faster even without a carpet. The only FGQ I know that is that painfully slow is Aurora at SR.

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Last I heard, they scaled back the plan to a fixed grip.

Their money situation is interesting. It seems they wanted to minimize their upfront investment check as much as possible to goose their return prospects (obviously, they're promising quite a bit in the firm of follow-on investments in infrastructure). Perhaps this was the only way they could justify making the investment.

What's clear to me at this stage is that they're going to try to lean on non-equity funding no matter how they can get it, and beyond just debt - tax breaks reserved for low income and/or rural areas and "donations" from locals/ property owners.

I'm less sold on the extent to which this means they will go cheap at every turn or not. That's not a prediction, I'm just saying it might be too early to tell. It seems possible they publicly scaled plans back to drive more donations/tax breaks/guarantees to get them as better deal (by making people nervous they were getting cold feet). Hard to say.

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[mister moose]

this spells the most financially responsible lift going in factoring acquisition cost and long range operating costs.

​

I'll take standard business practices for $600, Alex.

​

And comparing the old Slowdon quad is not fair, that lift was (still is in Southridge) horribly slow, even for a FGQ. They are normally a bit faster even without a carpet. The only FGQ I know that is that painfully slow is Aurora at SR.

I remember timing the no stop ride on the Snowdon quad, it was 9 1/2 minutes, which works out to standard speed. The real issue was frequent stopping, not line speed.

 

[jaytrem]

Really? Interesting. They lost out to Brian Head IIRC for that lift.

That's where it ended up. Thr manufacturer bought it, fixed it up and resold.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

I'll take standard business practices for $600, Alex.[/FONT][/COLOR]


I remember timing the no stop ride on the Snowdon quad, it was 9 1/2 minutes, which works out to standard speed. The real issue was frequent stopping, not line speed.

Yes Moose, almost everyone knows you didn't want it replaced. And how often did it really ever run without stopping? I don't think I EVER, even mid-week, Ever had a ride on it, the last 2-3 seasons before replacement, where it didn't at least pause at least once.

Once again, my point is that something should go there that the masses will want to use. That lift will be getting lapped A LOT by everyone that doesn't plan on skiing the Kennebago Steeps exclusively. Most skiers on here wont' care, because they'll ride it once or twice a day to get up top and that's it, but the masses will tire of a long cold ride and end up bailing for better options elsewhere.

I'm sure we'll know what's going to be installed in the next 30-60 days, if they plan on having it ready for the start of next season.

And Attitash should keep the Triple too right? :roll:

 

[deadheadskier]

Yes Moose, almost everyone knows you didn't want it replaced. And how often did it really ever run without stopping? I don't think I EVER, even mid-week, Ever had a ride on it, the last 2-3 seasons before replacement, where it didn't at least pause at least once.

Once again, my point is that something should go there that the masses will want to use. That lift will be getting lapped A LOT by everyone that doesn't plan on skiing the Kennebago Steeps exclusively. Most skiers on here wont' care, because they'll ride it once or twice a day to get up top and that's it, but the masses will tire of a long cold ride and end up bailing for better options elsewhere.

I'm sure we'll know what's going to be installed in the next 30-60 days, if they plan on having it ready for the start of next season.

And Attitash should keep the Triple too right? :roll:

+1

And I'd venture to say the terrain off the Rangeley is more suitable for 75% of the market than that off the Kennebago. It's the area of the mountain with the greatest amount of sustained vertical cruising terrain. Kinda like the Superquad terrain at their neighbor to the east.

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[bdfreetuna]

The general answer is yes. This is what the old head Lift Mechanic at Sunday River told me. There are several reason that they are prone to wind closures. First, because they have that mechanical grip system that requires maintenance to adjust the pressure and is more fragile and susceptible to slippage than the fixed mechanisms, the manufactures recommends that the lift not run if the chairs swing a certain distance back and forth. It causes irregular chair spacing and possibly failure in extreme conditions. Also the detachable quads have a shit ton of sensors that sense all kinds of things include cable tension and chair spacing. These tend to trip more in the wind forcing the operators to shut the lift down instead of stopping and starting the thing many time each hour.

Thanks great reply. I wonder if that's what seems to happen with Mount Snow's Bluebird 6 pack, where some days it just keeps stopping unusually. Hopefully FBGM can clarify that one.

 

[Terry]

Done deal. The sale went through yesterday. They were dancing in the streets in Rangely last night!