Saddleback Meeting

[Edd]

Done deal. The sale went through yesterday. They were dancing in the streets in Rangely last night!

Holy shit! Where’d you hear that?

Edit: Never mind, found something.

https://www.pressherald.com/2020/01/31/investment-firm-completes-saddleback-mountain-purchase/

 

[thetrailboss]

Holy shit! Where’d you hear that?

Edit: Never mind, found something.

https://www.pressherald.com/2020/01/31/investment-firm-completes-saddleback-mountain-purchase/

So the article says an HSQ is in the plans. The more I look at the map and layout, the more an HSQ makes sense.

And I can't believe that $6.5 million bought it. I imagine five years of closure might have pushed the value down a lot.

 

[Edd]

It’s a tough call on the HSQ but I’m thinking they need to have it. It’s what the consumer wants.

I ponder how Smuggs gets away with it, being remote also. But, northern VT has many winter attractions, catering to huge population centers. Sugarloaf aside, Saddleback is all alone up there.

Edit: What’s the feasibility of Saddleback getting on the Ikon Pass?

 

[bdfreetuna]

Smuggs barely gets away with it, the only excuse is "low skier traffic". Which, given the size of Madonna and the terrain off the double isn't a good argument when you consider the lift lines which move very slowly and can easily exceed capacity.

They're pushing it with the double on Sterling as well.

MRG and Smuggs are 2 places I won't be returning to on a weekend. I love the single chair at MRG and IMO it shouldn't be replaced because it's special, and there's no lines on weekdays, but Smugglers could do a fixed grip quad (needs to be very windproof up there) with chairs close together and have 3-4x uphill capacity on the main mountain. This would also relieve lines at Sterling because people would take more runs on Madonna.

That double is also painfully slow.

Just a matter of time.

 

[EPB]

It’s a tough call on the HSQ but I’m thinking they need to have it. It’s what the consumer wants.

I ponder how Smuggs gets away with it, being remote also. But, northern VT has many winter attractions, catering to huge population centers. Sugarloaf aside, Saddleback is all alone up there.

Edit: What’s the feasibility of Saddleback getting on the Ikon Pass?

I agree. They should probably bite the bullet and go high speed. I've said this several times in various places, but I'd love to know how much revenue Attitash has lost in the last 20 years due to the summit triple. People absolutely expect it.

I've only been to Smuggs once, but my sense is a combination of:
-some of the top terrain/snowfall in the east
-reputation for family programs (which likely means good value on family ski trips)
-proximity to Burlington and perhaps Montreal
-value vs. Stowe and Lincoln Peak
-allowing snowboarding vs.MRG

I think a Sterling high speed lift would be great. Nothing worse than waiting behind intermediates to get on low capacity lift to the best terrain (looking at you, Jay Peak)

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[sull1102]

This won't be a popular opinion here, but as a late 20's snowboarder I personally would need some serious convincing to go to a mountain with no high speed lift. Even Attitash has lost my day ticket revenue because of the summit triple. If it had a quad, a bubble, or a Gondi then it would be much higher on my list. I look at Crotched and see the spot they carved out in the market and can’t help thinking that the Rocket has helped them out a lot. Attitash is such a major missed opportunity I feel like.


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[gregnye]

This won't be a popular opinion here, but as a late 20's snowboarder I personally would need some serious convincing to go to a mountain with no high speed lift. Even Attitash has lost my day ticket revenue because of the summit triple. If it had a quad, a bubble, or a Gondi then it would be much higher on my list. I look at Crotched and see the spot they carved out in the market and can’t help thinking that the Rocket has helped them out a lot. Attitash is such a major missed opportunity I feel like.


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For me it depends on the mountain. Only if the mountain has a retro-vibe or the expert trails to make up for the slow lifts then is it worth it.

Mountains worth it:
Smuggs
Magic Mountain
(Never been to mad river--but I will go because I've heard it's worth it).

The worst is a slow lift on a wide intermediate trail. There is no excuse for those anymore. I refuse to go back to Atti-Trash until that lift is upgraded. Just like I had no interest of returning to Sunapee until the Sunbowl Lift was upgraded.

 

[EPB]

For me it depends on the mountain. Only if the mountain has a retro-vibe or the expert trails to make up for the slow lifts then is it worth it.

Mountains worth it:
Smuggs
Magic Mountain
(Never been to mad river--but I will go because I've heard it's worth it).

The worst is a slow lift on a wide intermediate trail. There is no excuse for those anymore. I refuse to go back to Atti-Trash until that lift is upgraded. Just like I had no interest of returning to Sunapee until the Sunbowl Lift was upgraded.

I'd recommend Saddleback though. The advanced sector up top is worth it. ~1000 feet of vertical on a fixed quad that's under 3000 feet long. No run-out and the lift ride is ~6 minutes. The issue is keeping intermediates happy and getting to the expert area if it's your cup of tea.

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[kbroderick]

If there's enough ungroomed skiing, a slow ride up doesn't seem so bad. MRG is a classic example, but I'd put Bolton Valley in the same category--the ratio of ski time to lift time doesn't feel out of whack if you're lapping trees, and if you ski hard, the recovery time is kinda nice.

Doing groomer laps is another story. Very few places are big enough that a two-minute descent is unreasonable, and pairing that with a twelve-minute ride kinda sucks because we are spoiled by faster lifts.

 

[deadheadskier]

This won't be a popular opinion here, but as a late 20's snowboarder I personally would need some serious convincing to go to a mountain with no high speed lift. Even Attitash has lost my day ticket revenue because of the summit triple. If it had a quad, a bubble, or a Gondi then it would be much higher on my list. I look at Crotched and see the spot they carved out in the market and can’t help thinking that the Rocket has helped them out a lot. Attitash is such a major missed opportunity I feel like.


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Attitash used to average around 200K skier visits a season 20 years ago. Now it's around 150k. I place a huge part of that decline on them doing basically nothing for improvement in 25 years, especially the triple. All their primary competition has invested substantially on infrastructure in that time. Hopefully Vail sees this and quickly replaces the triple. The terrain off the top is quite good, but nobody wants to ride a 15 minute lift to ski it.

HSQ at Crotched was a game changer. I skied it twice before they put that lift in. 850 vertical off an almost ten minute ride was lame. 950 off a four minute ride works well for them.

I tolerate MRG and Smuggs slow lifts on non-weekend days because the terrain off Madonna and the Single is the best advanced terrain in New England and you get 2k vert.

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[EPB]

Attitash used to average around 200K skier visits a season 20 years ago. Now it's around 150k. I place a huge part of that decline on them doing basically nothing for improvement in 25 years, especially the triple. All their primary competition has invested substantially on infrastructure in that time. Hopefully Vail sees this and quickly replaces the triple. The terrain off the top is quite good, but nobody wants to ride a 15 minute lift to ski it.

HSQ at Crotched was a game changer. I skied it twice before they put that lift in. 850 vertical off an almost ten minute ride was lame. 950 off a four minute ride works well for them.

I tolerate MRG and Smuggs slow lifts on non-weekend days because the terrain off Madonna and the Single is the best advanced terrain in New England and you get 2k vert.

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This is the key (at least for Smuggs - where I've been). Not to converge thread ideas, but places on super passes might seem every bit as unnavigable in the not too distant future.

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[Terry]

Arctaris Impact Fund, LP, successfully completed the purchase of Saddleback Mountain on Friday, January 31st and will immediately begin preparations for re-launching ski operations for December 2020.


We’d like to thank the Berry family for their commitment to the mountain as we look forward to finishing the job they started.


Our focus will now shift to launching the redevelopment effort, completing our philanthropic campaign to fund the mountain improvements, placing the order for a detachable-grip quad chairlift, building a more powerful and efficient snowmaking system, and renovating the lodge.


With the purchase transaction complete, Arctaris can also begin to work in earnest with the State of Maine and other interested parties to develop solutions for affordable housing, affordable daycare, workforce development, transportation and access to healthcare benefits.
Just saw this on a Facebook post from Saddleback.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

Arctaris Impact Fund, LP, successfully completed the purchase of Saddleback Mountain on Friday, January 31st and will immediately begin preparations for re-launching ski operations for December 2020.


We’d like to thank the Berry family for their commitment to the mountain as we look forward to finishing the job they started.


Our focus will now shift to launching the redevelopment effort, completing our philanthropic campaign to fund the mountain improvements, placing the order for a detachable-grip quad chairlift, building a more powerful and efficient snowmaking system, and renovating the lodge.


With the purchase transaction complete, Arctaris can also begin to work in earnest with the State of Maine and other interested parties to develop solutions for affordable housing, affordable daycare, workforce development, transportation and access to healthcare benefits.
Just saw this on a Facebook post from Saddleback.

Where was that published? Still looking for confirmation right from the Horse's mouth, that it'll be a detach instead of a fixed grip Rangely replacement.

 

[SkierDude]

Where was that published? Still looking for confirmation right from the Horse's mouth, that it'll be a detach instead of a fixed grip Rangely replacement.

Friends of Saddleback Mountain Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/groups/277158955983493/permalink/1043194702713244/

 

[machski]

Hmmm, originally they said HSQ, then it went to firmly a FGQ, now back to a HSQ? When a manufacturer is selected and the order shows up (and Peter puts it down for his 2020 I stalls on LiftBlog) then I'll believe what it will actually be.

Can't really compare Attitash's summit Triple to Rangley for two reasons. First, Summit is 6200' or so, well in the range where a detach is fully expected. The second is that Attitash has two other shorter lifts that are already Detach's that adds to the Summit's frustration.

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[MEtoVTSkier]

Friends of Saddleback Mountain Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/groups/277158955983493/permalink/1043194702713244/

Right from Andy. Good enough for me!

 

[Newpylong]

A fixed grip would be a grave mistake. For an entity stating they want to grow the business, a 4500' signature lift needs to be high speed or they'll suffer the same fate. This would also open the summit up to non-winter activities.

 

[EPB]

A fixed grip would be a grave mistake. For an entity stating they want to grow the business, a 4500' signature lift needs to be high speed or they'll suffer the same fate. This would also open the summit up to non-winter activities.

If they really plan to spend $38 million, that leaves $31.5 million left over after the purchase. I'd imagine a high speed lift is an incremental ~$3 million of investment over a fixed lift. Setting up the intermediate section of the mountain right is probably worth it.

Just look at how Peak operated. They basically neglected expert terrain in the early season (and in some instances, entirely) to ensure their blue terrain was open at places like Attitash and Hunter. It's not ideal for me, but I think it speaks to the importance of catering to the blue square skier.

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[bdfreetuna]

A fixed grip would be a grave mistake. For an entity stating they want to grow the business, a 4500' signature lift needs to be high speed or they'll suffer the same fate. This would also open the summit up to non-winter activities.

Good point about the advantage detachables have loading mountain bikes

 

[machski]

Well, let Saddleback go detachable on Rangley. Better hope they start pulling upwards of not North of at least 125K visits/year or they will likely be headed back towards NELSAP. The amount of extra yearly maintenance/operational costs of a detach vs FG will require that. And before some note examples like Burke with 2 detaches, they have been owned by Jay and thus could cost/revenue share across the group prior to receivership (and probably still within it as well). A better example may be Ascutney. They put in a HSQ and it wasn't long before they were gone and they were much closer to population bases than Saddleback. What did Saddleback peak out at under the Berry's for annual skier visits? Did they ever hit 100K?

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