Skiing is back!

[VTKilarney]

Spare us the car comparison.
About 38,800 people in the USA died in car accidents in all of 2019. The number was 39,404 in 2018.
We are now over 83,000 confirmed deaths from Covid-19 in about 2 months.

I didn't offer it to suggest that the overall risk of death is the same. That should have been very obvious had you taken the time to understand the context of my post. It was offered to show that Hawk is a hypocrite since he engages in activity that comes with a clearly identified risk to one's life.

You can complain about it all you want, but every government on this planet places a dollar value on human life. As far as policymakers are concerned, life is not priceless. Policy drafting takes that value into account - and many policies are put into place that will result in death. The buildout of the interstate highway system is a perfect example.

Anyone who says that COVID-19 policy must reflect the fact that each single life is priceless is a fool. Conversely, anyone who says that the cost to lives should NOT be factored into policy making is a fool. The reality is that we will have to weigh the economic cost with the cost in lives. The scale is tipping and the people who prefer to make policy decisions based solely on emotion are going to be sorely disappointed.

 

[p_levert]

You once mentioned how "experts" said it would be a very long time before a vaccine was available in the thread was deleted, I presumed that meant you agreed. But fine, I'll apologize if you makes you feel better. Doesn't change the fact you post factually incorrect doom & gloom COVID19 information here. Two days ago took the cake when you posted something obviously known to be false by anyone following COVID19 even remotely closely & then you yourself immediately posted a link demonstrating you were incorrect. That was a doozy. And no, we dont have "a problem" with these threads getting deleted. Deleted threads are extremely rare on AZ, and almost never happen (which is a good thing).



So what do we do? How about you get some tummy-time or simply ignore me. Seriously, are you 12?

Well, there was an apology in there. So, hey, that's great, thank you.

As far as me posting factually incorrect information last weekend, I completely disagree. If you can manage to avoid insults and stereotypes, please tell what I said that was incorrect.

 

[sull1102]

I have hardly proved your point. No the difference is that I would not blame myself for that accident. My rage would be pointed at the idiot. It would not even occur to me that is was my fault.

Also there will never be a point were human life is less valuable than money. I think this is where we differ in theology. Let me clue you in. People are resilient. The world made it through the depression which lasted for the better part of 10 years. Don't try and tell me that we have to open back up so people can go skiing and go to restaurants and get back all our 1st world luxuries at that cost of lives. That is going to kill more people. No it is you that has the tone of arrogance safe and sound up there in sparely populated norther kingdom.

There is no sense in arguing any more. This is just like the politics of today. There will always and only be two side.

Hahahahaha good one. Please let us know when you cause an accident, with an attitude like that I can only imagine what it’s like to be near you on the road Mr.Donowrong. I’m a professional off road driver for a major manufacturer, even been behind the wheel in a commercial or two, and I fully understand that behind the wheel anything can happen at anytime and can be the fault of anyone. You run over a nail and pop a tire doing 65mph on the highway, instant decompression you lose control, vehicle ends up rolling down an embankment into a tree, you survive but passenger passes away. You’re at fault there and there’s nothing you could have done differently(unless you have the proper skills and even then you have very little chance and a tenth of a second to course correct an accident once it is in motion).

Let me start by saying I live in Boston and fiancée is an ER nurse so you aren’t able to pull that “oh you live in VT and can’t understand” trash you’re spewing. During the depression schools were not closed, the economy was not halted by choice by the govt. One needs to stop and look at the big picture and not just look at keeping every human being locked in their homes. You think it is healthy for children to not go to school for more than six months, a year, more? You realize that Australia, Taiwan, Germany, and France have all started returning to the classroom. Do you have children in college or below currently?

The solution is simply, those who feel like you do, you stay home, hunker down, never leave the house again if you want. Live in fear, you do that, but you must let those who feel differently make their own choice and if they want to go to work, let them. You keep running from Mother Nature all you want. She’s going to get you if she’s going to get you. If it’s not covid maybe it’s the flu next year, cancer tomorrow, heart failure in a year, a car accident within the hour. Would you rather die in ten years having lived in this nightmare of mass unemployment, rising tension, people breaking peoples arms in target over a F-ING MASK or live your life in a way you feel is appropriate and allow others to do the same.

Also, real question, how long do you believe you can keep people imprisoned in their own homes before they stand up and fight back? I’m on the other side and believe we are rapidly approaching a very dangerous line, but I want to know what the other side thinks is the ideal solution.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

 

[skiur]

I listened to the entire Federal Reserve chairman's speech this morning, frightening stuff, which is why markets are down (they were up before comments). Outside the truly affected areas, we're already there on a go-forward basis.



Sorry to interrupt your little self-righteous bumper sticker with some reality, but there is no life without money. We're approaching the point where millions of Americans in relatively unaffected areas are "without money" for no scientifically solid reason. Easy for you to say otherwise, I bet you have a work from home job and/or are economically fairly solid, while millions of unemployed cant pay their bills & are genuinely in fear.

Actually the unemployed can pay their bills. I got laid off and am collecting unemployment and making over $800 a week.

 

[sull1102]

Actually the unemployed can pay their bills. I got laid off and am collecting unemployment and making over $800 a week.

For now. Whose paying you that unemployment? That state. How long can the state afford to pay you? California already started taking out loans to pay unemployment after less than two months of this.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

 

[Hawk]

Nope I'm out. You guys have it all twisted as usual. Not going to even try. I also have to get back to work. Sull, you go fight back. Whatever that means.

I am as you see me. Whatever that is is fine with me. Continue with your opinions. Thank you.

 

[VTKilarney]

Nope I'm out. You guys have it all twisted as usual. Not going to even try. I also have to get back to work. Sull, you go fight back. Whatever that means.

I am as you see me. Whatever that is is fine with me. Continue with your opinions. Thank you.

If by "twisted", you mean that we have provided facts and sound policy arguments, then yes, we have "twisted" things.

The bottom line is that you made several indefensible and illogical arguments* and, rather than admitting it, you are running away. Your echo chamber beckons.

If you can defend your arguments, now is the time to do it. If you can't, there is no need to announce your departure. Just go.

* such as, "I never could be the cause of a car accident" and, "Policy makers cannot put a monetary value on a life." (Compare that to my radical idea that policy makers need to weigh both economic cost and the cost to lives.)

 

[VTKilarney]

The discussion that has been happening brings up a good point that I read recently - that Dr. Fauci is an epidemiologist. And that's it.

This means that he is likely biased. The measure of his success is solely based on how many lives he can save from Covid-19. If the economy utterly implodes (which has already started), Fauci is not going to be the fall guy. He has a self interest in placing the value of life lost to Covid-19 over the value of the economy and lives ruined and lost as a result of the economy. Therefore, it is a mistake for policy makers to be taking their direction solely from Fauci and his ilk.

The other dirty secret is that the lives we save here are really being lost in developing nations. This idea that our economic lockdown has no impact on people from other countries (mostly poor people of color), is absurd.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/20/lockdown-developing-world-coronavirus-poverty/

 

[JimG.]

Just curious, since you are an avid skier Hawk, have you ever driven for skiing through a storm and after said to yourself "Man, making that drive was dumb"?

I'm trying to check out of this thread but keep getting pulled in.

And I'm glad because this line gave me a good laugh. Not only have I said that AFTER a car ride through a blizzard, I often say it AS I'm driving through a blizzard.

Thanks!

 

[Hawk]

If by "twisted", you mean that we have provided facts and sound policy arguments, then yes, we have "twisted" things.

The bottom line is that you made several indefensible and illogical arguments* and, rather than admitting it, you are running away. Your echo chamber beckons.

If you can defend your arguments, now is the time to do it. If you can't, there is no need to announce your departure. Just go.

* such as, "I never could be the cause of a car accident" and, "Policy makers cannot put a monetary value on a life." (Compare that to my radical idea that policy makers need to weigh both economic cost and the cost to lives.)

I'm not running away. I just don't have the time or the energy to argue with the likes of you, I do still have a job you know. You will always be right and have to remind us of it. But I will still put life over money any day.

 

[VTKilarney]

I'm not running away. I just don't have the time or the energy to argue with the likes of you, I do still have a job you know. You will always be right and have to remind us of it.

I see. You could have backed up your claim and proven us wrong. You are just choosing not to.

My apologies for thinking otherwise.

But I will still put life over money any day.

Saying it three times doesn't make it true.

 

[JimG.]

Let me start by saying I live in Boston and fiancée is an ER nurse so you aren’t able to pull that “oh you live in VT and can’t understand” trash you’re spewing. During the depression schools were not closed, the economy was not halted by choice by the govt. One needs to stop and look at the big picture and not just look at keeping every human being locked in their homes. You think it is healthy for children to not go to school for more than six months, a year, more? You realize that Australia, Taiwan, Germany, and France have all started returning to the classroom. Do you have children in college or below currently?

I'm going to guess no kids.

I'm thankful my 2 oldest are done with college and that my youngest is almost done with high school. I'm also fortunate my youngest has taken to online learning and is doing extremely well. And that his school and teachers are exemplary educators. He has not made a college choice yet but is down to 2 schools and he is determined to start in the Fall. The online learning experience makes him realize he can handle that no problem. I have more problems paying the insane tuition for him to possibly start out at home but I'll follow his lead.

A lot of his classmates and other students around the country are not as fortunate as he is. Many are struggling or have already checked out of school. Parents should not be expected to work all day and then become teachers at night. I can't even fathom how the younger grades are handling this. Some families have no internet or computers. Our district paid for those services for those who needed help. That is assuredly not the norm.

Keep this up and we risk a lost generation unable to support themselves leave alone contribute to society.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I will still put life over money any day.

If this is true, then the day will come that you will necessarily have to put money over life. I believe that day is about two weeks ago.

 

[VTKilarney]

If this is true, then the day will come that you will necessarily have to put money over life. I believe that day is about two weeks ago.

Even Cuomo doesn't believe that life is always more important than money. He said that he believed it, but just a couple of days later he started opening up portions of New York. I guess he said it because he thinks people are gullible enough to believe him.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Dr. Fauci is an epidemiologist. And that's it.

That guy is pissing me off. He almost always promotes a worst-case or near worst-case scenario to help effect the uber conservative outcome he desires. But then he often equivocates & walks that worst-case scenario back a bit, still leaving the "bad news", but adding some ambiguity. Your article is behind a pay-wall so I cant read it, but I'm guessing that's part of the criticism.

Fauci reminds me of the most annoying lead equity analysts I worked with on Wall Street who would have a Buy or a Sell on a stock, but then equivocate just enough so that no matter what the hell happened they could somehow save face. And the media is making Fauci into a hero solely for a reason I will not mention, but is entirely predictable.

 

[Hawk]

I have watched you over time on the Burke thread, then the Vt college thread and other threads. You log an absurd amount of time on here debating. I have always seen you on the aggressive side pushing and pushing your points. You are never wrong and always come up with response after response. I'm not going to say anything on here will ever change your opinion. I can't even compete with the time and energy aspects of this. What is the point with arguing with a professional arguer. This is what turns you on. This started with a car analogy and we ended up here. It's actually my fault for having an opinion. You can keep going all you want. You are not hurting my feelings. I am just sure I do not want to find out what this disease can do to me or my family. I never said you couldn't do want you want.

 

[BenedictGomez]

his school and teachers are exemplary educators.

I was IM'ing with a woman at work who said the above can be a real problem if you're not so lucky.

Her daughter has a great teacher making herculean efforts to make sure her class is staying afloat.
Her son has a teacher who is doing the bare minimum & they're having to basically do all the teaching.

There's no doubt in my mind children from coast-to-coast are missing critical learning skills from this mess. Any politician from either party who speaks of not having school in September should be run out of office on a rail.

 

[VTKilarney]

I have watched you over time on the Burke thread, then the Vt college thread and other threads. You log an absurd amount of time on here debating. I have always seen you on the aggressive side pushing and pushing your points. You are never wrong and always come up with response after response. I'm not going to say anything on here will ever change your opinion. I can't even compete with the time and energy aspects of this. What is the point with arguing with a professional arguer. This is what turns you on. This started with a car analogy and we ended up here. It's actually my fault for having an opinion. You can keep going all you want. You are not hurting my feelings. I am just sure I do not want to find out what this disease can do to me or my family. I never said you couldn't do want you want.

I get it. You could prove me wrong but choose not to. You've already said that.

 

[VTKilarney]

I was IM'ing with a woman at work who said the above can be a real problem if you're not so lucky.

Her daughter has a great teacher making herculean efforts to make sure her class is staying afloat.
Her son has a teacher who is doing the bare minimum & they're having to basically do all the teaching.

There's no doubt in my mind children from coast-to-coast are missing critical learning skills from this mess. Any politician from either party who speaks of not having school in September should be run out of office on a rail.

It's been pretty much a disaster for my kids. Many students in our area do not have reliable or high speed Internet, so they are not teaching classes online. The kids get homework assignments, but very little actual instruction. They are definitely missing out.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I am just sure I do not want to find out what this disease can do to me or my family. I never said you couldn't do want you want.

Surely you understand that when you speak out in favor of continued mandated lock-downs, that is precisely what you are doing?

You may not be the one pulling the trigger, but you are in favor of the shot being fired. I see no difference.