Hawk
Well-known member
Actually BG, my wife and I have had disaster planning talks for several years. We are very prepared.
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Actually BG, my wife and I have had disaster planning talks for several years. We are very prepared.
Hawk
Well-known member
No actually the lockdowns are about to end. Even in Massachusetts. I am saying that I will remain at home even after they lift them. I am also saying that people should have that choice and not be ridiculed.
Hawk
Well-known member
No. I just have a different opinion. There doesn't always have to be right and wrong.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
I can't speak for BG, but I was thinking about more than myself and my immediate family. You should try that as well.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
Sorry, but if it's your "opinion" that society should place an infinite value on a single human life, you are wrong.
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BenedictGomez
Well-known member
Then we're on the same page, but it didn't seem like it as I thought from your comments you meant you were against lifting the government shutdowns. If people like yourself wish to stay at home until Christmas, that's their prerogative assuming they have the ability & means to do so. Freedom. I may not agree with the necessity for that if you & your loved ones are not in a risk category, but you can freely do so if you wish. It's the people who are "forced" by government to remain in their home even though risk to them and others is currently quite low who are suffering.
Former Sunday Rivah Rat
Active member
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The media is pushing a false narrative of Lives vs. the Economy. What does not fit the phony narrative is that our shutdown as a food exporting nation could lead to tens of millions of people starving to death:
www.wfpusa.org/coronavirus/
www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/coronavirus-biblical-famines-could-double-global-hunger-un-warns.html
The media fearmongering the sheep into backing a lockdown is promoting a foreseeable genocide.
The real question should be is 1 american 82 year old with 1 or more underlying medical conditions worth the lives of 1000 poor Africans, the majority of them women and children??????
machski
Well-known member
Same here, which I would find hard to believe any of us on this board haven't been there at least once in our lives. Making Hawk's post on his driving a bit over the top.
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skef
Active member
Thanks you guys for getting some snowsports-related content back into this thread!
VTKilarney
Well-known member
The selfishness of some people who have the privilege and means to ride out an extended economic shutdown is one of the most disturbing things about this whole mess. I completely understand why we locked down in order to avoid demand outpacing medical capacity. But the reality is that we overcompensated in all but one city in the country, and even that city only had a problem at a couple of hospitals. There is no doubt that an extended lockdown will result in famine and death - but I guess when it's poor people of color suffering, we aren't supposed to care.
I completely understand why retired folks are scared. I would be too. But it's patently absurd for retired people to think that the economy should be indefinitely frozen for their protection - especially when those folks are the most capable of self isolating. Retirees have already left younger generations with crippling national and state debt. Now they want to destroy their economic livelihood too. It's sad that the counter culture generation became one of the most selfish generations this country has ever known.
All of those trillions of dollars being spent on stimulus? How about we use it to allow vulnerable people to stay home. That makes a lot more sense to me.
A few thoughts
1. Let's all try and be a bit more respectful of each other on this forum. Times are tough, people are stressed, lots of emotions running high. I see a lot of trying to win the internet macho crap and it's just not cool right now.
2. I'm firmly in the camp of we need to open the economy back up rapidly and be reactive when health problems come up. There is no playbook on being proactive regarding the current situation. The US isn't Italy, which isn't Germany, which isn't Sweden, which isn't China. NY isn't VT, which isn't Georgia, which isn't Maine. Population density differs, healthcare knowledge and technology differs. This isn't one size fits all. Americans like to puff their chest out about having the most advanced healthcare in the world. Yet look at our most advanced healthcare cities? Boston and NY. They have had the worst results in the country.
3. Remote areas with low infection rates have their own unique problems and concerns. It's easy to say, po-dunk wherever should be fully open for business because infections are low. They're not Boston or NYC so, let's just open right on up. Those areas don't necessarily all feel that way.
I was working at the most remote hospital in New England today. They've got 5 ICU beds. At one point 4 were occupied with Covid patients a couple of weeks ago. One of the beds still has a patient hanging on by a thread on a ventilator after 25 days as of today. I spent a good bit of time with the COO today talking about what they've gone through the past two months. Their concern hasn't been flattening the curve. They know they can ship patients out to areas of more hospital capacity. Their concern has been having a key surgeon become sick. Critical Access hospitals in remote areas hang on by a thread financially. Often the only source of profit is a couple of surgeons who hospital administration have worked their ass off to attract. Typically they're older, near retirement, but want a more relaxed lifestyle before retiring. These hospitals are literally one or two surgeons away from failing. So, that was this COO's biggest concern. What happens if one of these aging, high risk surgeon's get's sick? We lose them, we lose our ability to be solvent. The thread is literally that thin at these hospitals.
Having a critical access hospital close is just about the quickest way to absolutely kill a rural community. This has been happening about ten times a year for a decade in this country.
It's worth considering locally in regards to how quick local communities open up. Again, I'm for rapid re-opening, but I don't think many realize just how close many of our rural hospitals are to failing and closing for good.
1. Let's all try and be a bit more respectful of each other on this forum. Times are tough, people are stressed, lots of emotions running high. I see a lot of trying to win the internet macho crap and it's just not cool right now.
2. I'm firmly in the camp of we need to open the economy back up rapidly and be reactive when health problems come up. There is no playbook on being proactive regarding the current situation. The US isn't Italy, which isn't Germany, which isn't Sweden, which isn't China. NY isn't VT, which isn't Georgia, which isn't Maine. Population density differs, healthcare knowledge and technology differs. This isn't one size fits all. Americans like to puff their chest out about having the most advanced healthcare in the world. Yet look at our most advanced healthcare cities? Boston and NY. They have had the worst results in the country.
3. Remote areas with low infection rates have their own unique problems and concerns. It's easy to say, po-dunk wherever should be fully open for business because infections are low. They're not Boston or NYC so, let's just open right on up. Those areas don't necessarily all feel that way.
I was working at the most remote hospital in New England today. They've got 5 ICU beds. At one point 4 were occupied with Covid patients a couple of weeks ago. One of the beds still has a patient hanging on by a thread on a ventilator after 25 days as of today. I spent a good bit of time with the COO today talking about what they've gone through the past two months. Their concern hasn't been flattening the curve. They know they can ship patients out to areas of more hospital capacity. Their concern has been having a key surgeon become sick. Critical Access hospitals in remote areas hang on by a thread financially. Often the only source of profit is a couple of surgeons who hospital administration have worked their ass off to attract. Typically they're older, near retirement, but want a more relaxed lifestyle before retiring. These hospitals are literally one or two surgeons away from failing. So, that was this COO's biggest concern. What happens if one of these aging, high risk surgeon's get's sick? We lose them, we lose our ability to be solvent. The thread is literally that thin at these hospitals.
Having a critical access hospital close is just about the quickest way to absolutely kill a rural community. This has been happening about ten times a year for a decade in this country.
It's worth considering locally in regards to how quick local communities open up. Again, I'm for rapid re-opening, but I don't think many realize just how close many of our rural hospitals are to failing and closing for good.
People don't realize that the economy isn't going to just magically "reopen".
Many people are going to be hesitant to and will stay home.
We can no longer return to normal, and honestly I'm ok with that--because if normal means living in one of the wealthiest nations in the world with many not able to afford healthcare or a place to live, that's not a society I wish to live in. We need change. I am still hopeful that we can address these issues before/while we reopen.
And honestly, those that want the economy to reopen asap, are just fixated on a number going up in the stock market, the president's reelect-ability, or want to get their hair cut. They don't care about people or workers. To them it's "Who cares that I might endanger my hair dresser's life, I need to look nice".
And before you say "opening the economy right now will help the poor people", let me point out that Supermarkets right now are hiring, so there is an opportunity to make money. Almost all Star Markets in my area are hiring but no one is applying. Why? Because they don't want to get COVID-19.
Chelsea Massachusetts was hit really hard by COVID. Most of these people there are "essential" in title only, when they should be receiving hazard pay for the currently minimum wage job they do. We as a country need to use this opportunity to rethink everything.
I'm from Mass and we've been hit really hard here. I have friends that actually lost family. If you think this is a hoax, I don't know how to help you. As for NH, Maine and VT, I say good luck because once you open, there will be irresponsible people in my state driving up (tourism) and spreading it up there.
Many people are going to be hesitant to and will stay home.
We can no longer return to normal, and honestly I'm ok with that--because if normal means living in one of the wealthiest nations in the world with many not able to afford healthcare or a place to live, that's not a society I wish to live in. We need change. I am still hopeful that we can address these issues before/while we reopen.
And honestly, those that want the economy to reopen asap, are just fixated on a number going up in the stock market, the president's reelect-ability, or want to get their hair cut. They don't care about people or workers. To them it's "Who cares that I might endanger my hair dresser's life, I need to look nice".
And before you say "opening the economy right now will help the poor people", let me point out that Supermarkets right now are hiring, so there is an opportunity to make money. Almost all Star Markets in my area are hiring but no one is applying. Why? Because they don't want to get COVID-19.
Chelsea Massachusetts was hit really hard by COVID. Most of these people there are "essential" in title only, when they should be receiving hazard pay for the currently minimum wage job they do. We as a country need to use this opportunity to rethink everything.
I'm from Mass and we've been hit really hard here. I have friends that actually lost family. If you think this is a hoax, I don't know how to help you. As for NH, Maine and VT, I say good luck because once you open, there will be irresponsible people in my state driving up (tourism) and spreading it up there.
Dickc
Active member
With respect to opening up, If a restaurant can keep decent spacing, maybe put single table tents in part of the parking lot to aid in separation I think they can reopen. If you do not want to risk going DON’T. That is your choice. Keeping us under lockdown is killing the economy. I think after 8 weeks many people are well aware of the danger, and will keep social distancing for some time to come. My son and his fiancé have just postponed their September 25th 2020 wedding to June 18 2021 as they feel there is too much up in the air to “rush” into a September date. The venue was quite happy to accommodate them, and in fact when they called, The venue started to suggest a postponement until they said that was what they called to do. Many stores can properly social distance customers, Gyms are a bit more of an issue as equipment is more closely spaced, and they are intimate by their nature. Moving and removing equipment might be their only solution. That will end up with someone’s “favorite” equipment no longer usable. Pools will be a problem as we know nothing about how long the virus can survive in the water. Yes, chlorine is supposed to kill stuff like that, but I don’t know if anyone has tested that. Skiing next fall may be OK, but I think trying to open Killington for the last weekend or two would be a problem as I think skiers would come out of the woodwork to ski and it would be impossible to keep distanced. Beauty spas and barber shops can open. They are going to have to open by appointment only, and perhaps have only ONE chair in the waiting area. If you get there early, wait on the car and have them call your cell to come in.
Overall I think there are a lot of things that CAN open, but its going to need to utilize a “distance police” to stop some yahoo’s who either just don’t think, or worse, think this stuff is “stupid”. Its real, its going to be with us for a long time to come, and labs and medical people have a whole bunch of work to do to really figure out the whole immunity question, transmission process, and best treatment courses, etc.
Please be patient, as it might take infecting enough people to get to herd immunity to finally put this MOSTLY in the rear view mirror. I know we do not want certain people to get this as it WILL kill them. That is another thing the medical people need to figure out is the WHY so we can save these people. That will take time, so we are going to lose these people until its figured out. The less the better, but, face it, its inevitable.
Overall I think there are a lot of things that CAN open, but its going to need to utilize a “distance police” to stop some yahoo’s who either just don’t think, or worse, think this stuff is “stupid”. Its real, its going to be with us for a long time to come, and labs and medical people have a whole bunch of work to do to really figure out the whole immunity question, transmission process, and best treatment courses, etc.
Please be patient, as it might take infecting enough people to get to herd immunity to finally put this MOSTLY in the rear view mirror. I know we do not want certain people to get this as it WILL kill them. That is another thing the medical people need to figure out is the WHY so we can save these people. That will take time, so we are going to lose these people until its figured out. The less the better, but, face it, its inevitable.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
I think you have confused the tail with the dog.
How so? They're often the largest employer with the best paying jobs in those locations. When they close, not only is there that economic loss to deal with, but those who work outside of healthcare now see their closest hospital services being 30, 50 in some cases 100 miles away, making that place to live less desirable.
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Good call trying to take down the temperature.
I will say, in fairness to our relatively heavier reliance on private healthcare, we never rationed care and we now have too many ventilators thanks to private ORs and private companies including Tesla, etc. This has served as a great example of how profit motives increase supply over price-fixed socialized systems.
That said, Sweden of all places, seems to have done a great job. Perhaps sin taxes to keep people from smoking and getting fat aren't so bad after all. :lol:
If I'm Andrew Cuomo or Bill de Blasio, I go to bed every night thanking my lucky stars that there's a scapegoat in the White House to take the heat for the fact I sent COVID-positive elders back to nursing homes (somewhere in the ~1/3 range of all deaths have come from nursing homes), demanded way more resources than I needed (ventilators, ships) and never closed the subway system (which served to incubate the virus for months as it never even got cleaned until May). If this happened in 2014, they'd be public enemies 1 and 1a because there's no way #44 gets blamed for NYC's failures. In fairness to Cuomo and de Blasio, though, NYC certainly had natural challenges given incredibly high population density and the fact NYC is an international travel destination.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
"Scapegoat" - interesting term for near monopolized, institutional media industry bias.
machski
Well-known member
A few things on your post. First, those that want the economy re-opened are not just saying that to re-elect the current slate or have the stock market shoot up. It is more likely they have been impacted and the future they are looking down for themselves is rather bleak. You also apparently don't have your pulse on the jobs outlook, there are many more job losses to come GUARENTEED this fall when certain provisions or the CARES act shut off and suddenly certain sectors will layoff in mass. Watch for October 1st, there will be a huge wave then if the federal government doesn't do more before then.
As for the supermarket positions, well the folks those positions normally would attract, even with the extra hazard pay they are offering, are still likely sub-par to the enhanced unemployment they are getting from the blind fed $600/wk boost. Since you are from MA and the unemployment in that state is already exceedingly generous from NH, many folks are likely living better than they have on unemployment. Of course, the Fed bonus only lasts 12 weeks and then cuts off, so maybe in another month or so some of these grocery store positions might start getting filled. Time will tell on that.
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BenedictGomez
Well-known member
One thing becoming clear to me from reading this thread is the, "lockdown indefinitely" people are clearly unaware the lockdown has not worked anywhere near as well as what the experts would have liked, expected, or told us. No matter how many times Dr. Fauci tells you otherwise & the doting media breathlessly repeat it.
Yes, there was a beneficial slowing of the spread in crisis areas, but it isnt as dramatic as one might hope for or assume elsewhere given the drastic measures taken. You can see this by using individual states as laboratories & directly comparing results.
Frankly, some of the states which received heaps of media criticism are doing almost as well, as well, or better, than some of the states which took severe closing actions. Everyone in Georgia should be dead by now to hear NBC news or CNN tell it, but that is simply not the case, and we're now 2 weeks past GA opening. Conversely, Virginia took some of the most strict measures in the nation, issued a March 30 "Stay At Home" order, and their deaths are still slightly increasing (with low 'n's). Meanwhile, Georgia has far fewer infections & fewer deaths per capita than Virginia.
Sorry to say GA vs. VA isnt an isolated example. The lockdown hasn't worked well & the media is doing America a real disservice in spinning this false narrative that it's working great & should ideally continue in all 50 states.
Yes, there was a beneficial slowing of the spread in crisis areas, but it isnt as dramatic as one might hope for or assume elsewhere given the drastic measures taken. You can see this by using individual states as laboratories & directly comparing results.
Frankly, some of the states which received heaps of media criticism are doing almost as well, as well, or better, than some of the states which took severe closing actions. Everyone in Georgia should be dead by now to hear NBC news or CNN tell it, but that is simply not the case, and we're now 2 weeks past GA opening. Conversely, Virginia took some of the most strict measures in the nation, issued a March 30 "Stay At Home" order, and their deaths are still slightly increasing (with low 'n's). Meanwhile, Georgia has far fewer infections & fewer deaths per capita than Virginia.
Sorry to say GA vs. VA isnt an isolated example. The lockdown hasn't worked well & the media is doing America a real disservice in spinning this false narrative that it's working great & should ideally continue in all 50 states.
I wouldn't even bother with that one. It's a laundry list of regurgitated and exceedingly lame straw man arguments mixed with fundamental failure to understand just how many people have lost their livelihood to the pandemic. The employment rate is now 14.7%; millions are out of work. Edit: for those who don't understand how an unemployment rate works, you need to be searching for a job to be considered unemployed. The USA will run out of lenders far before the healthcare system could be changed in any fundamental way (that's if there were even a serious appetite to do so which obviously isn't the case, for better or worse).
While gregnye may have felt serious writing this, it does not rise to the level of being dignified by being taken seriously.
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