Snowboarders Get New Slope, but Racers Are Dislodged

[Greg]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/17/sports/othersports/17ski.html?ref=sports

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Sounds like Mt. Creek is making sound moves to stay in business now and in the future. When you consider all their geographical disadvantages I think you have to applaud their ingenuity to not only be able to stay open, but to be able to expand and thieve.

That said I wouldn’t be caught dead in the place. I pity the people who have to ski there for whatever reason, but admire them at the same time because they’re doing the best they can with what they have.

 

[JimG.]

Sounds like Mt. Creek is making sound moves to stay in business now and in the future. When you consider all their geographical disadvantages I think you have to applaud their ingenuity to not only be able to stay open, but to be able to expand and thieve.

That said I wouldn’t be caught dead in the place. I pity the people who have to ski there for whatever reason, but admire them at the same time because they’re doing the best they can with what they have.

I know you meant to write "thrive" and not "thieve"; an odd Freudian slip.

I would never set foot in this place. Terrain Parks may be the wave of the future but I hope I'm old and in a wheelchair before all mountains devote ONE THIRD of their terrain to them.

 

[millerm277]

I'm confused, are they turning all of South and Bear into terrain parks? That would be an incredibly dumb move, as South's terrain is suited to skiers much better, and the connection is nearly impossible for boarders.

At least they're not doing anything to Granite, it's got the only somewhat challenging terrain on the mountain.

 

[TwinTips21]

I think the idea is good but they picked the worst part of the mountain. South and Bear is where most of the skiers go at mountain creek and the snowboarders usually swarm North.

 

[rickbolger]

Greetings, first post from a long time lurker.

Word is that this is really a case of the tail (the hotel) wagging the dog (the on mountain product). Intrawest has all their money-making stuff at the Vernon base, but all the people who spend money (adult skiers and parents of racing kids) avoid the Vernon base because of the terrible parking, that ghastly cabriolet, and the foul-mouthed-out-of-control youths who frequent the Vernon base.

Can you imagine paying for a weekend at that new hotel, only to step onto that scuzzy lift with a crush of cursing, chain-smoking kids?

Well, nobody else could either, so it appears that the decision was made to move the riffraff to South. Jack Kurlander must be spinning in his grave. Even if the riffraff moves to south (and I don't believe they all will) the parking will still be awful at the Vernon end, the lift will still be a disgrace, and the 10-year-old "temporary" lodge will still be horrifying.

Will Creek do anything to entice me to renew my season's pass? I'm going to wait and see, but I doubt it.

 

[JimG.]

Greetings, first post from a long time lurker.

Word is that this is really a case of the tail (the hotel) wagging the dog (the on mountain product). Intrawest has all their money-making stuff at the Vernon base, but all the people who spend money (adult skiers and parents of racing kids) avoid the Vernon base because of the terrible parking, that ghastly cabriolet, and the foul-mouthed-out-of-control youths who frequent the Vernon base.

Can you imagine paying for a weekend at that new hotel, only to step onto that scuzzy lift with a crush of cursing, chain-smoking kids?

Well, nobody else could either, so it appears that the decision was made to move the riffraff to South. Jack Kurlander must be spinning in his grave. Even if the riffraff moves to south (and I don't believe they all will) the parking will still be awful at the Vernon end, the lift will still be a disgrace, and the 10-year-old "temporary" lodge will still be horrifying.

Will Creek do anything to entice me to renew my season's pass? I'm going to wait and see, but I doubt it.

Welcome aboard.

Great post...shows you how tough it can be to cater to well-heeled customers and move ahead and promote what's newer and exciting in the industry. Sounds to me like there will inevitably be alot of unhappy skiers.

 

[gores95]

Welcome aboard.

Great post...shows you how tough it can be to cater to well-heeled customers and move ahead and promote what's newer and exciting in the industry. Sounds to me like there will inevitably be alot of unhappy skiers.

Yes he had a very nice post #1. My oldest daughter (turning 10) and me have been season pass holders for four years now. They also offer her a free weekly lesson which is nice. At $199 for me and $179 for her, and the mountain being 25 minutes from my house you can't beat it. We mostly ski weeknights when lift lines are non-existant but also will venture over early in the morning on weekends for a couple of hours. Do we like the smelly tent and bad parking at North? Not on your life. But this is the reality of being a skiing family in Northern NJ. My wife gets a Triple play card ofr $50 and my youngest will be 5 yo so she is still free.

Last season we were lucky enough to have vacations at Mont Tremblant in December and Gore in February. I also did SLC alone in Feb. and took my daughter to Breckenridge, CO in April but I cannot see myself taking four trips in a season anymore...just too expensive. Perhaps one of two trips a year is in our future.

So we are "stuck" with MC. This decision to convert South to a snowboarders haven at first glance looks pretty dire but who knows? They REALLY need to tear down the tent and improve the parking at North...that's the real disaster. Never mind that they had real opportunities to blow snow in Feb/March last winter and missed the boat. They could have EASILY remained open several more weeks if they cared.

That being said if we want to ski multiple times a week its really the only game in town. I have checked out Hidden Valley and it does not look too impressive. So unfotunately we are at the mercy of whatever Intrawest has in store for us. Unlike VT, NY, etc. we do not have much of a choice.

 

[ctenidae]

Damn snowboarders, always ruining things for us right-minded skiers.

Two planks good, one plank bad!

 

[TwinTips21]

Yes he had a very nice post #1. My oldest daughter (turning 10) and me have been season pass holders for four years now. They also offer her a free weekly lesson which is nice. At $199 for me and $179 for her, and the mountain being 25 minutes from my house you can't beat it. We mostly ski weeknights when lift lines are non-existant but also will venture over early in the morning on weekends for a couple of hours. Do we like the smelly tent and bad parking at North? Not on your life. But this is the reality of being a skiing family in Northern NJ. My wife gets a Triple play card ofr $50 and my youngest will be 5 yo so she is still free.

Last season we were lucky enough to have vacations at Mont Tremblant in December and Gore in February. I also did SLC alone in Feb. and took my daughter to Breckenridge, CO in April but I cannot see myself taking four trips in a season anymore...just too expensive. Perhaps one of two trips a year is in our future.

So we are "stuck" with MC. This decision to convert South to a snowboarders haven at first glance looks pretty dire but who knows? They REALLY need to tear down the tent and improve the parking at North...that's the real disaster. Never mind that they had real opportunities to blow snow in Feb/March last winter and missed the boat. They could have EASILY remained open several more weeks if they cared.

That being said if we want to ski multiple times a week its really the only game in town. I have checked out Hidden Valley and it does not look too impressive. So unfotunately we are at the mercy of whatever Intrawest has in store for us. Unlike VT, NY, etc. we do not have much of a choice.

Really good point, whatever the case may be we have no choice but to like it.

 

[millerm277]

Really good point, whatever the case may be we have no choice but to like it.

You have some choices, Sno Mtn in Scranton (formerly Montage) is about an hour and 15-30 minutes from there, and much better than MC....

 

[ERJ-145CA]

Greetings, first post from a long time lurker.

Word is that this is really a case of the tail (the hotel) wagging the dog (the on mountain product). Intrawest has all their money-making stuff at the Vernon base, but all the people who spend money (adult skiers and parents of racing kids) avoid the Vernon base because of the terrible parking, that ghastly cabriolet, and the foul-mouthed-out-of-control youths who frequent the Vernon base.

I'll go to Mountain Creek once or twice a season for variety, but only on a weekday, because of most of those reasons. MC is only 40 minutes from my house but I usually do the 1 hour 45 minute drive to Belleayre which is the closest large mountain, it is a much better experience, better terrain, much less crowded, a lot cheaper on lift tickets, food, even lockers. If I don't feel like driving that far I'll ski a smaller mountain, like Hidden Valley or Mt. Peter, which are the same drive time as MC, just to avoid MC.

 

[tirolerpeter]

MC

Haven't been to MC in a few years. The "Cabrio" idea is a good one for moving people from a parking lot to a base area (Tremblant, Canyons) but miserable as a lift for upmountain travel. Smokers think it is fine to light up while jammed up against everyone else. After all, they are "outside." My major objection to MC is that a run from the top of the Cabrio back to the base is around 20 - 25 seconds if taken straight down "Zero Gee" (If I remember the name correctly. The old "GG" trails had a few more interesting twists.) I agree that real estate development seems to be the "primary business" of Intrawest. Look at the explosion of such projects at Tremblant. But hey, when you don't have time to drive farther, MC works just fine.

 

[dmc]

Two planks good, one plank bad!

Ah but Grasshopper - could 2 planks exist without one?

 

[Rob A]

I am totally appalled at this move by MC. I already have to deal with so much crap from them as it is like long lines, opening decent trails way too slow and closing them way too early, etc. but now they have gone too far.

Rick, I too have decided to contact MC. I figure the more contact they get the better, I am very pissed at them right now. Here is my (long) email that I wrote to them. It explains all my frustrations in this situation.

To whom is may concern:

Hi, my name is Rob (skier) and I have been a season pass holder at Mountain Creek for the past 4 years. Although I have never really liked how you guys run things, it has always been worth the price. But now, I'm not sure if I will be redeeming my season pass for the 07-08 season after learning about how South and Bear are slated to become 100% snowboard terrain parks. I hope you realize how much of a disgrace this really is. You are taking half of the entire resort, and basically eliminating it. Skiers like myself try to avoid the Vernon side for various reasons. Now don't get me wrong, I do like skiing at Vernon, Zero G and Eagle Hunt are some really, really good trails. But the fact of the matter is, the parking is horrible, the lodge is noisy and smelly, the cabriolet gondola is a disgrace, and the trails on the Vernon & Granite side that are worth skiing are never open early in the season (Zero G, Eagle Hunt, Devil's Bit, Pipeline).

Despite all that, I have always been able to have a good time at Mtn Creek as I could park at the South lot at 7:30am on a weekend and get a very good spot, walk straight into the lodge, then be ready to ski at 8am with short lines for the first couple hrs. Skiing the quick, yet more challenging runs on bear, and the long cruisers offered on South. Trails like Red Tail, Jumping Jack (although this run has been neglected for 2 yrs now), Big Bear, and Kamikazee make the skiing on the South side great. Plus it tends to be much quieter than the Vernon side, less reckless boarders, which makes it an overall better experience than the Vernon side. After a few hrs, I would take the Sojourn double (which was closed way too often last yr might I add), over to Granite. Granite is by far the best peak at Mtn Creek. The lines tend to be shorter, and the trails are the most challenging. Devil's Bit and Pipeline are creek's 2 best runs. What's the problem? They are never open! These 2 trails, along with the expert runs on Vernon, need to be open in December, not March. After some skiing there, I'd head over to Vernon and get some really nice runs down Zero G and Eagle Hunt, but reaching the bottom of the Mtn is a nightmare. Having to constantly take off skis, then go through a long maze to enter the Cabriolet, or take the seldom open and very slow Triple Chair.

But overall, the experience has been good. As for the most part I can avoid the troubles of Vernon like the lodge and parking, and just deal with the others for short time like the horrible lift, over-crowded with reckless snowboarders, and the fact that I have to wait until mid to late season to ski Zero G and Eagle Hunt.

But now you have gone too far. By eliminating half of the entire resort to skiers, you are forcing us to use the horrible parking, smelly/noisy lodge, horrible lifts, lack of early season good trails, and now have to deal with the race program over at Vernon. South and Bear are great for skiing, and now it seems they are gone, I can't believe you guys would do something like this. I was a little upset when the Great Northern area was lost to boarders, but I figured it was okay because it was only 5 trails or so. But by giving them 2 full peaks, you have simply gone too far, and expect to lose many customers from the skier market.

Now lets get past the fact that South and Bear are gone. After reading through the article in the NY Times, it says that Mtn Creek is trying to appeal more to traditional skiers by giving them a more peaceful and enjoyable experience at the Vernon side with most of the boarders removed. So I'm interested, what do you plan to do to make the Vernon side appeal more to skiers, because in it's current state, it is simply horrible. So I am interested to hear your plans on the following matters.

1. The parking at Vernon is terrible. You must park way in the back, then walk over a hill, cross the parking lot, walk through the guest services village, climb stairs, then cross a walkway before finally reaching the lodge. At south you simply park, cross a street and you are at the lodge. So I ask what are your plans to make the parking at Vernon similar to the parking at South? All that walking and climbing is frustrating, while the South parking is simple.

2. The cabriolet gondola is simply a disgrace. Skis have to be taken off before getting on every time, then put back on when reaching the summit. You must also stand the entire time. And just to enter it you must cross through an annoying maze. And the triple chair is hardly a workaround, as it is very, very slow. What are your plans to fix this issue for skiers? Any new chairlifts planned? How about knocking down that triple chair and replacing it with a High Speed quad that is open all the time (not just when it gets too crowded).

3. Then there of course is the so called temporary tent lodge at Vernon. This lodge is smelly and noisy, and nowhere near the same experience as the traditional type lodge at South. Are there any plans to finally replace this thing? Is a simple, traditional ski lodge like at every other resort in the nation too much to ask?

4. The trails that appeal to skiers (Pipeline, Devil's Bit, Zero G, Eagle Hunt/Lower Eagle) are never open early in the season. I assume the plan this season is to get these 4 trails open for Dec 15, atleast I hope that is the case. I would ski only South/Bear for the first few wks of the season because nothing over at Vernon or Granite is worth skiing until the above mentioned trails are open, so by removing us skiers from South/Bear, you must open the trails that we want to ski early. And I don't mean Horizon, Red Rock, and Fox Run. That is hardly worth the trip. Get the good trails open early if you are taking us away from South and Bear. And especially for Devil’s Bit and Pipeline, after getting them open, don’t make them the first trails to close! They should be open straight through the closing weekend.

5. The racing program is now moving from Big Bear to Zero G. But hear is the problem, Zero G is one of Mtn Creek's best trails. And if it is constantly closed for race training like Big Bear has been the past few seasons, then that will simply be a disgrace. What are the plans to make sure the public always has access to Zero G?

Sorry for the long email, but I really felt the need to write this. I fear that you Mtn Creek will be ruined for the traditional and advanced skier this upcoming season. I'd really appreciate a reply, especially concerning the 5 points I made. I would really like to know the plans to make Vernon more appealing to skiers, if South and Bear are being given away to the snowboarders and other park rats. I really, really hope Mtn Creek just simply no longer cares about the skiing market. We have been skiing the trails of Mtn Creek, and the former Vernon Valley/Great Gorge for a long time, and it would be a damn shame to see it end this way.

Sincerely,
Rob Albano
Mtn Creek Season Pass Holder

So there it is, I will now wait for a reply. They better do something for us skiers at Vernon. The skiing, parking, and lodge over at South made it a very nice experience and made it easy to enjoy skiing across all 4 peaks and be able to avoid the parking and lodge at Vernon at the same time. Now all of that is ruined, it is a damn shame.

 

[JimG.]

That's quite a first post Rob...welcome aboard.

Your approach is the best shot you have. Write a heartfelt letter and send it off. Then be prepared to vote with your dollars.

 

[Rob A]

That's quite a first post Rob...welcome aboard.

Your approach is the best shot you have. Write a heartfelt letter and send it off. Then be prepared to vote with your dollars.

Yup there isn't much else we can do. It's looking like MC is not gonna be too great this season, unless they make some serious changes to the Vernon side to make up for taking all of South and Bear.

 

[Rob A]

I recieved my reply from MC.

Rob,

Thank you for taking the time to detail out your thoughts regarding the changes at Mountain Creek. I know this was a decision that our senior leadership team spent a lot of time researching prior to deciding to move all terrain parks to South and Bear. Our terrain park patrons (both snowboarders and free skiers) are growing at such a rate that our current terrain park acreage simply was not enough. Our beginner terrain is also located at Vernon, of which the majority is snowboarders, and when you combine terrain park crowds with beginners, it’s not a good guest situation. Much of the expert terrain at Vernon was crossing over beginner terrain. With this change, we will have four trails that are again open to intermediate skiers and riders.

We have also worked closely with our racing community to find a solution that works for our teams. We are dedicated to growing the sport and feel that the kids involved in racing will continue to receive excellent support through our coaches and facilities. Zero G will not be closed all the time to our non-racing patrons and closer to the season we will be able to post a schedule.

The flow of skiers and riders, who are not into terrain parks, will be able to enjoy the mountain (Vernon and Granite) much more. It will also be our plan to open Vernon before South, not vice versa as in years past. The trails that you mentioned not opening until March- Pipeline and Devil’s Bit generally open in mid-January.

We are working with the town and development on our lodge plans but I do know that the sprung structures will be in place this winter. I certainly do understand your frustration with the cabriolet and North’s parking; while I don’t have any news on it being significant changes there, I will certainly pass your comments onto our VP of Operations, Greg Pack. I can say that the cabriolet is the reason we no longer experience 20-30 minute lift lines like we did prior to the cab going in.

Sincerely,
Jennifer
Jennifer B. Harper
Mountain Creek, an Intrawest Destination Resort

So basically it is as bad as I thought. South and Bear will be 100% terrain parks. No changes will be done to the lifts or parking at Vernon. Apparently the lodge will undergo "some" construction this season. And now with Vernon opening before South, odds are opening weekend will only feature crap trails like Horizon, Red Rock, and maybe Fox Run or something in Great Northern. But Devil's Bit, Pipeline, Zero G, and Eagle Hunt will be left to rot as usual.

 

[JimG.]

I recieved my reply from MC.

Rob,

Thank you for taking the time to detail out your thoughts regarding the changes at Mountain Creek. I know this was a decision that our senior leadership team spent a lot of time researching prior to deciding to move all terrain parks to South and Bear. Our terrain park patrons (both snowboarders and free skiers) are growing at such a rate that our current terrain park acreage simply was not enough. Our beginner terrain is also located at Vernon, of which the majority is snowboarders, and when you combine terrain park crowds with beginners, it’s not a good guest situation. Much of the expert terrain at Vernon was crossing over beginner terrain. With this change, we will have four trails that are again open to intermediate skiers and riders.

We have also worked closely with our racing community to find a solution that works for our teams. We are dedicated to growing the sport and feel that the kids involved in racing will continue to receive excellent support through our coaches and facilities. Zero G will not be closed all the time to our non-racing patrons and closer to the season we will be able to post a schedule.

The flow of skiers and riders, who are not into terrain parks, will be able to enjoy the mountain (Vernon and Granite) much more. It will also be our plan to open Vernon before South, not vice versa as in years past. The trails that you mentioned not opening until March- Pipeline and Devil’s Bit generally open in mid-January.

We are working with the town and development on our lodge plans but I do know that the sprung structures will be in place this winter. I certainly do understand your frustration with the cabriolet and North’s parking; while I don’t have any news on it being significant changes there, I will certainly pass your comments onto our VP of Operations, Greg Pack. I can say that the cabriolet is the reason we no longer experience 20-30 minute lift lines like we did prior to the cab going in.

Sincerely,
Jennifer
Jennifer B. Harper
Mountain Creek, an Intrawest Destination Resort

So basically it is as bad as I thought. South and Bear will be 100% terrain parks. No changes will be done to the lifts or parking at Vernon. Apparently the lodge will undergo "some" construction this season. And now with Vernon opening before South, odds are opening weekend will only feature crap trails like Horizon, Red Rock, and maybe Fox Run or something in Great Northern. But Devil's Bit, Pipeline, Zero G, and Eagle Hunt will be left to rot as usual.

They're more into the snowboard crowd...been that way for years now. They see that as their target market and they want to grow along with that demographic. When these decisions are made, it's done from a business perspective only and they will rob Peter to pay Paul to implement thier vision. You know, this is not much different from what is going on up at Killington except Intrawest has owned MC for years and their style is imbedded in the local mentality...so nobody goes full metal jacket on them because they're new and don't know better.

That doesn't help you much though. I'm sure you'll spend a fair amount of time there anyway. I'd suggest trying out a few new places you might not have been before (I don't know) like Belleayre, Windham, Plattekill, or my home hill Hunter. Try new places, branch out. You may find a hill that works for you in a different if not better way.

Give a shout if you decide to try out Hunter...I'll show you around.

 

[Rob A]

They're more into the snowboard crowd...been that way for years now. They see that as their target market and they want to grow along with that demographic. When these decisions are made, it's done from a business perspective only and they will rob Peter to pay Paul to implement thier vision. You know, this is not much different from what is going on up at Killington except Intrawest has owned MC for years and their style is imbedded in the local mentality...so nobody goes full metal jacket on them because they're new and don't know better.

That doesn't help you much though. I'm sure you'll spend a fair amount of time there anyway. I'd suggest trying out a few new places you might not have been before (I don't know) like Belleayre, Windham, Plattekill, or my home hill Hunter. Try new places, branch out. You may find a hill that works for you in a different if not better way.

Give a shout if you decide to try out Hunter...I'll show you around.

MC may be my home Mountain, but I sure get around. I take a few trips each season. Last year I went to Belleayre 3 times, and Killington twice. I've also been to places like Hunter in the past. Hunter's backside (the West I believe they call it) is simply fantastic. K27 and another trail, I believe it was called West Way or Trail 44 were a blast. And Outer Limits at Killington sure knows how to get your legs screaming.

Each year the place I always visit the most besides MC is Belleayre mostly because it is just a great, quiet resort mostly skier resort, offers great terrain, and they open early and close late. They are run by the state of NY so I think that is why they don't mind spending the money on blowing snow in April. Belleayre in my opinion is set up the best for skiers, top half the of trail you can bang through the moguls, then the whole runout afterwards to the bottom is a long carver and you can make sweeping, arcing turns from side to side constantly picking up speed until you reach the bottom. Belleayre's got alot of interesting trails, Dot Nebel is easily the best carving trail I've ever been on, and Cathedral Brook is a all-natural bumpy ride! Plus the one thing I really love about Belleayre is the ticket prices. Last yr I went on 3 different $15 fridays, including one in April which was my best ski day of the yr conditions and weather wise. It looked like what mid February in April, it was even snowing on the hill.

This yr I'm going to book a trip and stay at a hotel during their Winter Festival, which has $10 lift tickets all week, Mon-Fri.