So Who SHOULD Pay for the Backcountry Rescue of a Hiker or Skier?

[Connecticut]

Then what should they have done? They have limited resources and volunteer SAR teams who have lives and real jobs. The goal is to reduce unnecessary rescues.

Do you remember the old Smokey the Bear campaigns? "Only you can prevent forest fires." (- And even Mr. Yuck.) This was a very positive step in promoting more responsible behaviors around high risk areas for fire. If the state does get any money from this boy, they should begin by starting up a similar campaign for wilderness preparedness. Instead of being proactive with education, the state is hoping to benefit from some poor fool's mistake, but threats of fines do not help. Which is more important, life or money? There have been how many deaths in the mountainous areas because of unpreparedness or accidents and still with a long history of fatalities people are still wondering in the woods completely clueless. The consequences mean nothing because nobody ever considers that "it" will happen to them. However, if there is a sustained effort to educate the public and not just targeting the hiking population, there will be less incidents of stupidity.

 

[riverc0il]

Then what should they have done? They have limited resources and volunteer SAR teams who have lives and real jobs. The goal is to reduce unnecessary rescues.

Someone on T4T regarding this same discussion mentioned insurance. Whether it be a special outdoors insurance or if it gets wrapped into an existing insurance. Either way, I would be willing to pay like $50 a year or something like that for any S&R outdoors rescue. Sure as heck beats a virtually unpayable (by the average person) $25,000 fine. I guess they have this type of insurance in Europe.

 

[billski]

Someone on T4T regarding this same discussion mentioned insurance. Whether it be a special outdoors insurance or if it gets wrapped into an existing insurance. Either way, I would be willing to pay like $50 a year or something like that for any S&R outdoors rescue. Sure as heck beats a virtually unpayable (by the average person) $25,000 fine. I guess they have this type of insurance in Europe.

Actually, I've been investigating insurance. While it's quite popular in europe (and practically mandatory because of the laws) nothing in the US to speak of.
Most of these policies are extremely narrow in range of coverage and payouts. As you say, better than nothing. American Alpine offers one that covers $5K. another interesting alternative for insurance is the SPOT (findmespot.com) offers GEOS insurance for $8 year with purchase of a SPOT device, coverage $25K/rescue, up to 2x per year. While spot is not as reliable a device as a beacon, you do get the insurance. Spot requires a subscription too ($100/year), so the device upfront plus $108/year is your premium payment.

I'm leaning towards the PLB alone right now, no fees, just the upfront equipment purchase ($600). Still looking for better insurance options. Here is a business opportunity looking you in the face!

 

[ctenidae]

I just pulled some statistics on Yosemite, using Nationa Parks data and YOSAR info, and in a quick BOTEC, looks like about 0.005% of visitors need to be rescued, at a cost of about $8 per visitor.

So, tack $8 to the useage fee paid to access the park, and fund SAR with that. I wouldn't have any problem paying that.
Not sure how that'd work out for free-access places, but this gives you some idea of the scale.

Other bits- average cost of a rescue in Yosemite from 1998 to 2007 is around $2,500 (only have solid cost data from 1998 to 2002 (average $434K/year)), though it seems like the cost/rescue has declined.

 

[billski]

I just pulled some statistics on Yosemite, using Nationa Parks data and YOSAR info, and in a quick BOTEC, looks like about 0.005% of visitors need to be rescued, at a cost of about $8 per visitor.

So, tack $8 to the useage fee paid to access the park, and fund SAR with that. I wouldn't have any problem paying that.
Not sure how that'd work out for free-access places, but this gives you some idea of the scale.

Other bits- average cost of a rescue in Yosemite from 1998 to 2007 is around $2,500 (only have solid cost data from 1998 to 2002 (average $434K/year)), though it seems like the cost/rescue has declined.

I'll bet the drive-thus with grandma and baby would just love that fee!

 

[ctenidae]

I'll bet the drive-thus with grandma and baby would just love that fee!

It already costs $20 to drive in, $10 to walk, bike or ride a horse.

Wilderness permits for overnight camping are free- could pop a charge on that. They have a quota system on all trailheads to limit the number of people on a trail in a day- could add a day hike fee to that. I'm not a fan of paying fees to use something I'm already paying taxes to support, but a $5 mandatory donation to local SAR groups wouldn't bother me so much. Plus, if you skipped the fee, somehow, then that could automatically make you liable for the full cost of your rescue. And, even at $10 a trip, that's cheaper than an insurance premium would be.

 

[thetrailboss]

The White Mountains are not a park. They are National Forest. The only fees collected are nominal parking fees that have been collected since '97 to assist with trail maintenance.

 

[ctenidae]

The White Mountains are not a park. They are National Forest. The only fees collected are nominal parking fees that have been collected since '97 to assist with trail maintenance.

That does make it more difficult, true.

 

[thetrailboss]

Plus there are many agencies that are involved in these rescues....mainly local volunteer SAR groups...not some monolithic organization. The NH Fish and Game coordinates them IIRC.

 

[ctenidae]

Plus there are many agencies that are involved in these rescues....mainly local volunteer SAR groups...not some monolithic organization. The NH Fish and Game coordinates them IIRC.

I didn't say it'd be easy. But really, I'd much rather pay a per-use fee to help make sure there's SAR available than pay an insurance company to make money off of me not getting lost. Plus, the insurance company isn't helping support local SAR, so if someone who doesn't ahve insurance gets stuck, there's no help for them. I'd say it's much more likely that someone who is willing to buy the insurance is also much less likely to need it, since by definition they've thought ahead.

 

[hammer]

How about a simple, well-advertised fine ($1000?) if you require rescue due to negligence? Won't recoup the overall costs or a rescue, but it may help to prevent poor planning.

 

[ctenidae]

How about a simple, well-advertised fine ($1000?) if you require rescue due to negligence? Won't recoup the overall costs or a rescue, but it may help to prevent poor planning.

Define "negligence."

That's where the difficulty comes in.

 

[thetrailboss]

Define "negligence."

That's where the difficulty comes in.

That's what this thread really boils down to.

 

[hammer]

I'd say it's much more likely that someone who is willing to buy the insurance is also much less likely to need it, since by definition they've thought ahead.

Therein lies the problem with insurance...

Maybe having an additional SAR fee (maybe variable based on the previous year's costs) would be the most reasonable way to go. Of course, I'd look at it as effectively another tax increase, but I live in MA so I'm used to that...

 

[catskills]

That's easy. I can answer that with two words.

NOT ME

Seriously, the real question here is who is going to pay for the helicopter ride.

Same as answer as above. NOT ME

 

[riverc0il]

Plus there are many agencies that are involved in these rescues....mainly local volunteer SAR groups...not some monolithic organization. The NH Fish and Game coordinates them IIRC.

While I appreciate the volunteer effort of the majority of SAR organizations and individuals, it begs the question that if so many SAR efforts are volunteer led, why the high price tag? Up keep of equipment yearly, perhaps one or two paid WMNF administrators or field persons, gas to and from the search location, etc. If they drop the helo, how much does a SAR really cost. And I mean really cost... not taking extraneous non-specific search aspects out of the equation (i.e. the ranger is getting paid a salary regardless of the SAR so that shouldn't be factored into the equation, etc.). I don't think the fees being proposed are realistic and I think any discussion of "who pays" needs to involve realistic dollars otherwise it shouldn't be the person being rescued on the hook for 25 big ones.

 

[riverc0il]

How about a simple, well-advertised fine ($1000?) if you require rescue due to negligence? Won't recoup the overall costs or a rescue, but it may help to prevent poor planning.

Better yet, how about a $1000 fee for any SAR regardless of negligence. It will put more money into the system and eliminate the "define negligence" issue. Let's face it, I think most people wouldn't mind paying a small fee if someone helped them regardless of if they were negligent or not. If I broke my ankle and had to be carried out or had something like what Billski have happen, $1000 for the rescue effort seems reasonable for folks to come save my ass.

So the other question is are the "big" negligence cases funding all the SARs? Are the major negligence fines subsidizing the SAR system? Seriously, I still can't believe $25,000 for e negligence fine. That money can not all be going to one single SAR. Not literally dollar for dollar as I suggested in my last post.

 

[Patroller]

When someone is negligent and forgets the pot on the stove and there is a fire, does that person get "charged" for the fire department responding and extinguishing the fire??? How about for car accidents and the fire department does extrication. Ambulance billing is now common, but 25,000 is ridiculous. The real question is how to adequately fund SAR teams as this is a service that needs to be provided in wilderness areas just like fire and ems is provided in a city...

 

[Geoff]

When someone is negligent and forgets the pot on the stove and there is a fire, does that person get "charged" for the fire department responding and extinguishing the fire??? How about for car accidents and the fire department does extrication. Ambulance billing is now common, but 25,000 is ridiculous. The real question is how to adequately fund SAR teams as this is a service that needs to be provided in wilderness areas just like fire and ems is provided in a city...

$25K that includes a helicopter search isn't rediculous.

 

[thetrailboss]

$25K that includes a helicopter search isn't rediculous.

+ 1. Plus remember that the overall message is to deter people from being unprepared.