Something is Brewing at Sundown at it's not Beer!

[MadMadWorld]

I think it depends on whether or not it can be marked properly and if it's mandatory or not. For example, the cliff at the very bottom of MRG under the single chair is almost unavoidable, the only way around it is rocky. So DD easily

Well that's not exactly considered a trail. I don't know of any trail in the east that always has an unavoidable drop. I wish there were though!

 

[skiNEwhere]

Well that's not exactly considered a trail. I don't know of any trail in the east that always has an unavoidable drop. I wish there were though!

Not a named trail....but you can ski it when it's open so it's......something.

I thought pico had a mandatory cliff under one of the lifts as well.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Not a named trail....but you can ski it when it's open so it's......something.

I thought pico had a mandatory cliff under one of the lifts as well.

Yea patrol does maintain the rope in front of it and will drop it if the conditions are good enough so your right. Yea the ledges under Little Pico are mandatory but is not a trail and they don't have a boundary to boundary policy like MRG.

 

[Domeskier]

Also, maybe most of us don't care but a lot of us have children that do. Trying to keep them safe is hard and I think some type of baseline would be helpful.

Seems like the biggest offenders in this regard are not places like Sundown, who are at least trying to give their consumers a sense of the comparative difficulty of their offerings, but places like MRG, whose trail ratings barely begin to do justice to how difficult the terrain is (based on the photos and comments in this thread).

Ah well. I'm really just glad that Satan decided to locate his staircase within day-trip distance to me!

 

[VTKilarney]

If not, a place like Sundown would presumably be obliged to label all its trails green or blue and I cannot imagine a less skier-friendly result than that.

Why? If that is what the trail is, then that is what it is. There is no way around that reality. How is it not skier friendly for a skier to know how hard a trail actually is using objective standards?

Your point misses one crucial fact. Sundown would be free to rank their trails in terms of difficulty - they just couldn't fudge the actual difficulty of any one trail. Many ski areas, for example, have signs indicating the easiest way down. I see no reason why Sundown couldn't do such a thing.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Why? If that is what the trail is, then that is what it is. There is no way around that reality. Sundown would be free to publish a ranking using their own system, but if they wanted to use the traditional markings, they would have to accept the standardization. Many ski areas, for example, have signs indicating the easiest way down. I see no reason why Sundown couldn't do such a thing.

But what about East vs. West? There are plenty of double diamonds out west that dwarf what we would consider a double diamond.

 

[VTKilarney]

But what about East vs. West? There are plenty of double diamonds out west that dwarf what we would consider a double diamond.

That is why there is a need for standardization. And it also may be why we need more than 3 basic levels. It may be a better idea to base the difficulty levels on the skills needed to complete the trail. But I'm not debating HOW the standards she be set - I am merely saying that standardization in and of itself benefits the consumer.

 

[Mapnut]

Keep in mind that one problem with standardization is the variability in conditions, especially in the East. For instance if Gunbarrel had a rain followed by a hard freeze, and was all frozen granular with patches of clear ice, it would definitely be an expert trail. Moguls vs. groomed is another variable. Even out west some trails would change by a whole class depending on how deep the snow is. I think understanding that the ratings are relative is still the best idea.

 

[VTKilarney]

Keep in mind that one problem with standardization is the variability in conditions, especially in the East. For instance if Gunbarrel had a rain followed by a hard freeze, and was all frozen granular with patches of clear ice, it would definitely be an expert trail. Moguls vs. groomed is another variable. Even out west some trails would change by a whole class depending on how deep the snow is. I think understanding that the ratings are relative is still the best idea.

How is this an argument against standardization? I don't see ski areas redesignating trails and printing new trail maps after ice storms now. Your concern is with the system in general, and has nothing to do with standardization. If there is some uncertainty in the model I don't see how adding more uncertainty improves things.

 

[Domeskier]

Why? If that is what the trail is, then that is what it is. There is no way around that reality. How is it not skier friendly for a skier to know how hard a trail actually is using objective standards?

Because the objective standards you are calling for cannot reasonably be shoe-horned into a three or four symbol rating system. It's been a while since most of us were beginners, but I can assure that there is a big difference from the perspective of a beginner between a green at Sundown and a black at Sundown and you wouldn't be doing those beginners any favors by relabeling Sundown's blacks as greens by comparison to Corbett's Couloir. Any standardized rating system that applied equally to JH and MRG and Sundown and Powder Ridge is going to have far too many grades of distinction to be reasonably suited to the principal purpose of a trail rating system to begin with, i.e., to guide skiers of various skill levels to suitable terrain on the mountain where they are then skiing.

 

[VTKilarney]

You keep ignoring the fact that Sundown would be free to rank the difficulty of their trails. They just couldn't fudge an objective difficulty rating - and that is all. I'm finding it hard to believe that Ski Sundown is such a mystery. Isn't it pretty easy to gauge terrain by just looking at the trails? It's not like there are lots of hidden cliffs or other such obstacles.

 

[Domeskier]

You keep ignoring the fact that Sundown would be free to rank the difficulty of their trails. They just couldn't fudge an objective difficulty rating - and that is all. I'm finding it hard to believe that Ski Sundown is such a mystery. Isn't it pretty easy to gauge terrain by just looking at the trails? It's not like there are lots of hidden cliffs or other such obstacles.

I am simply pointing out that an objective rating system of the type you are proposing would be (a) unhelpfully simplistic if it were limited to the green, blue, black and double black designations currently in use or (b) unhelpfully complex if it were supplemented by adding double greens, circle in squares, squares in diamonds, diamonds in circles and whatever other permutations and additions you would need to enable a resort like Sundown to meaningfully distinguish between its terrain without (God forbid!) implying that it had any offerings comparable to MRG or JH. The reason that resorts use mountain-relative ratings is precisely because an objective standard is difficult to define, even harder to implement, and largely irrelevant to the purpose of rating trails anyway.

 

[dlague]

I am simply pointing out that an objective rating system of the type you are proposing would be (a) unhelpfully simplistic if it were limited to the green, blue, black and double black designations currently in use or (b) unhelpfully complex if it were supplemented by adding double greens, circle in squares, squares in diamonds, diamonds in circles and whatever other permutations and additions you would need to enable a resort like Sundown to meaningfully distinguish between its terrain without (God forbid!) implying that it had any offerings comparable to MRG or JH. The reason that resorts use mountain-relative ratings is precisely because an objective standard is difficult to define, even harder to implement, and largely irrelevant to the purpose of rating trails anyway.

Not to mention, many smaller mountains technically would be all green or all green and blue with no black trails.

 

[Domeskier]

Not to mention, many smaller mountains technically would be all green or all green and blue with no black trails.

Exactly. A rating system needs to be simple enough to be used and understood by the average skier on the mountain, but discriminating enough to keep them out of trouble. The mountain-relative green, blue and black systems we have now works just fine in both those regards. With an objective system, we'd either get the all green mountains you describe or we'd have some medieval system of classification that only Copernicus could figure out.

 

[VTKilarney]

Smaller hills in Europe don't seem to need a huge box of crayons.

 

[powbmps]

When you C.L.I.T.'s want a real challenge, come on up to the mighty Sunapee, and give one our six double blacks a try.

 

[Savemeasammy]

Not to mention, many smaller mountains technically would be all green or all green and blue with no black trails.

Here's the thing: there isn't a damn thing wrong with this. Most skiers are beginners and intermediates anyway. But thanks to the current watered-down rating system, they just don't know it.


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[MadMadWorld]

When you C.L.I.T.'s want a real challenge, come on up to the mighty Sunapee, and give one our six double blacks a try.

Oh snap!

 

[dlague]

Here's the thing: there isn't a damn thing wrong with this. Most skiers are beginners and intermediates anyway. But thanks to the current watered-down rating system, they just don't know it.


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True, I totally agree! i find myself complaining about trail ratings and comparing what a black rated trail might be else where.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Here's the thing: there isn't a damn thing wrong with this. Most skiers are beginners and intermediates anyway. But thanks to the current watered-down rating system, they just don't know it.


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Sooooo your saying not everyone should get a trophy?! Shit.