Stenger and Quiros Ousted from Management of Jay Peak and Burke

[steamboat1]

Talk of deferred lift maintenance at Sugarbush is kind of silly. The majority of lifts were new installs by ASC.

 

[thetrailboss]

What's the relevance of ASC? If Summit Ventures bought SB in 2001 and the EB5 use at SB didn't start until 2007 or so, then wasn't ASC long gone by then? Summit Ventures couldn't have predicted that EB5 money would become available when they purchased SB from ASC, so I would think they had some plan that would have allowed them to survive without that money (obviously not with all the build out that they have today...but Win is a very smart business man so I find it hard to believe he would have bought SB only to say a few years later that they'd close without the EB5 money). Perhaps there was a lot of unexpected expenses (and I know Win has outright said ASC left them with a lot of deferred maintenance on infrastructure...so perhaps they weren't quite aware of the full scope of that at the time of purchase).

ASC was relevant because Steamboat said that the previous ownership had made the argument that without base development they would close. I was pointing out that ASC did make that argument when it was seeking permission to build a Grand Summit there.

My point was that I believed that Win and Summit Ventures were using the "job retention" requirement for EB-5 instead of the job creation prong. Their argument was that if they could not get funding for base area development than the resort may close and 400 jobs at least would be cut.

 

[thetrailboss]

Oh, sorry. That line was for some of the previous comments. The rest was aimed at the SB/EB5 usage.

OK. You had me scared there.

 

[thetrailboss]

Talk of deferred lift maintenance at Sugarbush is kind of silly. The majority of lifts were new installs by ASC.

Well.........

ASC did defer on some maintenance of said lifts. And Win and crew had to take care of some of those issues. Then they had their own issues that appear to be largely resolved.

 

[steamboat1]

ASC was relevant because Steamboat said that the previous ownership had made the argument that without base development they would close.

I said that?????????????

 

[benski]

All the ASC lift at Sugarbush were put in there first summer running the place. The lifts ASC put in have been big problems for Sugarbush, especially North Ridge which was relocated and not put together properly and has not ran rite since.

 

[River19]

Looks like Raymond James will be spending some coin on legal fees:

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/05/jay-peak-investor-files-class-action-lawsuit-against-raymond-james/

 

[WWF-VT]

All the ASC lift at Sugarbush were put in there first summer running the place. The lifts ASC put in have been big problems for Sugarbush, especially North Ridge which was relocated and not put together properly and has not ran rite since.

NRX had a lot of work done last year and ran without any issues this season.

 

[HowieT2]

Talk of deferred lift maintenance at Sugarbush is kind of silly. The majority of lifts were new installs by ASC.

It's not silly, it's true. You don't change the oil in your car until it's old?
and it wasn't just the lifts. The snowmaking system was a mess. They have been replacing the cheap substandard pipe asc put in all the way down to the pond for years. In fact, I think that the reason they were able to keep snowball and spring fling open through last weekend, was the increased diameter pipe installed last summer allowing them to make more snow

 

[fcksummer]

I don't know what's worse...getting banned or your username turning pink. :razz:

 

[tumbler]

Sugarbush benefited greatly from both ASC and Summit Ventures. ASC upgraded the lifts and snowmking. Does anyone rememeber what South was like before? Sugar Bravo- Triple, Gate House- Double and there was barely any nowmkaing coverage. So some of the pipe was junk, but Snowball/Spring Fling pipe predated ASC. ASC also did all the permitting for the hotel, base area and snowmaking pond, no easy or cheap feat in the Town of Warren and with the State. Summit Ventures was then able to modify the the existing approvals to what is in place now. If ASC had not done what they did I cannot imagine what the place would look like now. Probably new lifts but still the old Gatehouse lodge and the shanty town of buuildings that we used to move around in the summer. ASC got too big too fast and there was no money left. Win has done well and seems to financially prudent and has become a solid member of the MRV community.

Side note- The one thing I miss is the clock tower at the base, I wish there was one. I either have to dig my phone out or remmeber to look when getting on the lift.

 

[Newpylong]

I think it is fair to say there was deferred maintenance by ASC in the last years - it happens as things start to implode. I lived there from 94-99 and saw it with my own eyes.

However any discussion about ASC's influence on the mountain(s) as a whole cannot leave out all the good that they did. The mountain would simply not be what it is today without the investment they made.

 

[tumbler]

I think it is fair to say there was deferred maintenance by ASC in the last years - it happens as things start to implode. I lived there from 94-99 and saw it with my own eyes.

However any discussion about ASC's influence on the mountain(s) as a whole cannot leave out all the good that they did. The mountain would simply not be what it is today without the investment they made.

There absolutely was deferred maintenance, I didnt mean to imply there wasn't. I was there also and was one of the lucky few to keep my job during the summer.

 

[HowieT2]

Sugarbush benefited greatly from both ASC and Summit Ventures. ASC upgraded the lifts and snowmking. Does anyone rememeber what South was like before? Sugar Bravo- Triple, Gate House- Double and there was barely any nowmkaing coverage. So some of the pipe was junk, but Snowball/Spring Fling pipe predated ASC. ASC also did all the permitting for the hotel, base area and snowmaking pond, no easy or cheap feat in the Town of Warren and with the State. Summit Ventures was then able to modify the the existing approvals to what is in place now. If ASC had not done what they did I cannot imagine what the place would look like now. Probably new lifts but still the old Gatehouse lodge and the shanty town of buuildings that we used to move around in the summer. ASC got too big too fast and there was no money left. Win has done well and seems to financially prudent and has become a solid member of the MRV community.

Side note- The one thing I miss is the clock tower at the base, I wish there was one. I either have to dig my phone out or remember to look when getting on the lift.

I dont disagree with anything of that.
It wasnt until ASC's plan for the hotel was rejected and they had corporate cash flow issues that they started skimping on everything from maintenance to marketing. But the point was that when summit took over there was more than ordinary costs hiding.

fwiw-with respect to the snow making pipes, Win has said that the old pipes going to upper ripcord, organgrinder and jester limit what they can pump through to 2500gpm despite having roughly 4000gpm capacity at LP. So early season, when temps are marginal down low, they can't even utilize the capacity they have on the upper mountain. I think that's the next capital project on the list.

and totally agree about the clock tower. there used to be a clock on the sign by the super bravo but that came down last season. annoying and I suspect they dont have one intentionally.

 

[cdskier]

ASC was relevant because Steamboat said that the previous ownership had made the argument that without base development they would close. I was pointing out that ASC did make that argument when it was seeking permission to build a Grand Summit there.

My point was that I believed that Win and Summit Ventures were using the "job retention" requirement for EB-5 instead of the job creation prong. Their argument was that if they could not get funding for base area development than the resort may close and 400 jobs at least would be cut.

Ok, I get what you're saying now. Your position was that Summit Ventures was using ASC's argument to justify their own use of the job retention metric when they did decide to start using EB5. I wonder how much of that was reality vs simply a scare tactic. I will give them the fact that without the development they surely would have had less jobs than they do now, but I'm not going to buy all the way in to the "we would have closed" part.

To other comments in this thread re ASC, I absolutely agree ASC did some very good things along with some not so good things towards the end at SB.

Here's a more general EB5 question...the program is always touted as an "Investment". Investments can result in gains or losses. Do any of these EB5 "investments" ever actually result in the investor getting repaid more than they invested? From the way Sugarbush always talks about repaying their EB5 investors it sounded like they were simply getting repaid the amount they invested. I could easily be wrong on this though and interpreting comments Win/SB made incorrectly.

 

[HowieT2]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. Your position was that Summit Ventures was using ASC's argument to justify their own use of the job retention metric when they did decide to start using EB5. I wonder how much of that was reality vs simply a scare tactic. I will give them the fact that without the development they surely would have had less jobs than they do now, but I'm not going to buy all the way in to the "we would have closed" part.

To other comments in this thread re ASC, I absolutely agree ASC did some very good things along with some not so good things towards the end at SB.

Here's a more general EB5 question...the program is always touted as an "Investment". Investments can result in gains or losses. Do any of these EB5 "investments" ever actually result in the investor getting repaid more than they invested? From the way Sugarbush always talks about repaying their EB5 investors it sounded like they were simply getting repaid the amount they invested. I could easily be wrong on this though and interpreting comments Win/SB made incorrectly.

I think the simple answer is "yes".
what they earn depends on the success of the project.

 

[cdskier]

I answered part of my own question about whether I was interpreting the comments I remember hearing from SB on their repayment of EB5 investors.

Per this article, the investors are taking a slight loss, but getting pretty close to their original investment back
http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/01/foreign-investors-help-sugarbush-resort-return-to-profitability/

 

[steamboat1]

I answered part of my own question about whether I was interpreting the comments I remember hearing from SB on their repayment of EB5 investors.

Per this article, the investors are taking a slight loss, but getting pretty close to their original investment back
http://vtdigger.org/2015/11/01/foreign-investors-help-sugarbush-resort-return-to-profitability/

From the article: "The foreign lenders helped preserve 400 jobs at the year-round ski, mountain-biking, and golf resort, which has a $10 million payroll and about 155 full-time, year-round workers".

Doesn't say they created jobs.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The one thing I miss is the clock tower at the base, I wish there was one. I either have to dig my phone out or remmeber to look when getting on the lift.

Oh yeah.... I vaguely remember that!

 

[JPTracker]

Hostile Takeover attempt by Stenger backfired

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=431