sugarloafers pass pulled for no legit reason

[loafer89]

Thats the edited version. SK's original post had the sentence above ending like this:

and those who participate will be not welcome to enjoy that great mountain.

Thats where I took issue

I took issue with both parts, I just could not find the other part to post it.

 

[Geoff]

Thats the edited version. SK's original post had the sentence above ending like this:

and those who participate will be not welcome to enjoy that great mountain.

Thats where I took issue

So you've never written anything in the heat of the moment that you later regretted? They were reacting to a pot shot taken at them that crossed the line as they were trying to cope with a very emotional situation. SK was having a great rant. If he'd better qualified it to say "...and those who participate in flaming our employees as they try to cope with a death on the mountain will not be welcome to enjoy that great mountain", I think he had it exactly right.

The take-away from this is that the ski resorts were really stupid for shutting down their message boards. You don't get this kind of problem at Sunday River or Jay Peak where internet-enlightened people understand that it's worth hiring a competent person to moderate your message board.

 

[SLyardsale]

So you've never written anything in the heat of the moment that you later regretted? They were reacting to a pot shot taken at them that crossed the line as they were trying to cope with a very emotional situation. SK was having a great rant. If he'd better qualified it to say "...and those who participate in flaming our employees as they try to cope with a death on the mountain will not be welcome to enjoy that great mountain", I think he had it exactly right.

The take-away from this is that the ski resorts were really stupid for shutting down their message boards. You don't get this kind of problem at Sunday River or Jay Peak where internet-enlightened people understand that it's worth hiring a competent person to moderate your message board.

I know I cannot convince you - you will not be able to convince me that his post essentially called all who participate on that board a bunch of yahoos and threatened to pull our pass. He has since editted that out so perhaps everything is moving along in a peaceful ending. I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.

 

[riverc0il]

The TGR response makes it obvious that Boyne will lose out on revenue across all of their resorts. Sure, it might be a minimal hit to their bottom line when a few people cancel planned vacations and a bunch of other people choose to ski elsewhere. The fact remains that it was all avoidable if someone with half a clue took the time to see that plenty of people would view the pass pulling as heavy-handed and a freedom of speech issue.

It certainly makes me think twice about skiing at Loon, SR or the Loaf given all the other options in VT, NH and ME. Needlessly giving potential customers reasons to choose your competitors is bad business.

The crazy thing to me is that senior management was not consulted prior to the pass pulling. As a Store Manager, I have had one occasion in eight years of management in which I had to ban a customer from a store. You bet your bottom dollar that my boss was directly involved with that issue (theft related with threat of physical assault, which is even worse than a few verbal and internet spats). The really surprising thing about this (not that the entire incident is surprising and cause for alarm) is that senior management appears to have been blind sided.

 

[skircher]

Followup

Sugarloafers & others,

Yes, I did modify my post on the sugarloaftoday forum after I reread it and realized it did not read as I had intended and I apologize for making such a reckless error. (yes, I understand that some will call me out on this but those who really know me know this is the truth)

What I meant in long form was that, since our team members are frequent readers of the sugarloaftoday site and others like it, it is our intent to garner constructive feedback from those forums, and in the long run non constructive commentary -- by human nature is likely not be taken to heart and is less effective in garnering change.

Therefore, this nonconstructive feedback would likely not be used by members of our team as one of our valuable feedback loops. I have seen that firsthand since Boyne Resorts became involved in the East and now understand why the ASC “don’t engage with folks on those forums” policy – seemed to be less effective at moving toward common goals and developing mutual understanding.

As a company we read (and participate in) in forums as just one of our guest touch points. We also frequently interact using many other means including satisfaction surveys and direct contact such as meeting with as well as socializing with guests and key stakeholders. The constructive feedback is almost always acted upon.

Follow-up From My Commitment To Investigate The Season Pass Situation:
After further discussion with the Sugarloaf team, it became clear since my last post, that it was the emotional attachment to the trauma resulting from the accident were the catalysts for the pass suspension. It was not their intent to suppress free speech.

The team was wrong to allow posted comments or such emotion to play a part in their decision to revoke skiing privileges and acknowledge that both, along with past issues, clouded their judgment in this case. Our 60 year track record shows Boyne Resorts has not desired to suppress feedback or negative comments and this was the first of our resorts that I am aware of to have an occurrence of this nature. We always endeavor to engage in constructive dialogue with our customers and will continue to do so in the future. I again apologize for any inference to the contrary in my earlier post.

You should also know that the resort team did not issue a press release regarding the accident. It was in the course of a several minute interview answering specific questions about that tragic day. One of those questions was a direct question about the trail condition. We regret not being more sensitive when choosing words used in response to the reporter’s question and then ultimately to Matt (vonzipe/exiled) in the ensuing conversation about the post regarding the quote.

Meeting Results:
I am also pleased to have learned; that Jim Costello (the director of sales and marketing for Sugarloaf) and Matt did meet to work out the issues between them. As a result of that meeting they did indeed find reconciliation and reached common ground, Matt is now fully back in the Sugarloaf family. I also know that the team has learned from these recent interactions and are working toward a fresh start and toward a brighter future for Sugarloaf.

I personally want to personally and on behalf of Boyne Resorts apologize to Matt o for the consternation that he has endured and thank him for his objectivity and maturity while working through this matter in the past several days.

It is my sincere belief that the team at Sugarloaf and by association, the entire Boyne Resorts team, has learned a lasting lesson to better measure our actions when dealing in these scenarios. We will be and already are a better company for it.

I have been told by many industry colleagues not to avoid engaging in these communication mediums, but I still have the belief that interacting in this manner can be helpful in building a bridge between owners and customers and can assist in making us all better in the end.

As a family owned company we respectfully request your forgiveness for this impactful incident that was exacerbated by our team’s initial reaction and my lack of sensitivity in some of my comments.

Hopefully, we can put this behind us and all go out and enjoy our local ski area this weekend.

Respectfully,

SK

 

[Vortex]

I'm glad we got a full explantion and respect that you are the one who came forward to explain it.

 

[SLyardsale]

I am willing to forgive. I love Sugarloaf and am happy that this has come to an end. It was a train wreck, but I think Boyne has learned some valuable lessons.

 

[Geoff]

I am willing to forgive. I love Sugarloaf and am happy that this has come to an end. It was a train wreck, but I think Boyne has learned some valuable lessons.

I think it goes two ways. I also hope some people learned that if you cross the line on message boards, there can be consequences for your actions. That post was horribly inappropriate under the circumstances.

 

[SLyardsale]

I think it goes two ways. I also hope some people learned that if you cross the line on message boards, there can be consequences for your actions. That post was horribly inappropriate under the circumstances.

And the poster was called out on the board, and apologized soon after. That should have been the end of it.

 

[legalskier]

if you cross the line on message boards, there can be consequences for your actions. That post was horribly inappropriate

First and foremost, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family; what a horrible thing to go through.

As far as the consequential situation is involved, it’s good to see the matter is being resolved amicably. It’s commendable that SL apologized to the blogger, which addresses actions taken by them in response to his comments reacting to a statement initially made by them to a reporter. In other words, SL put their opinion out there, and he replied. He did not use offensive language, nor did he name anyone personally. He did not use “actions,” but rather “words”–an important distinction. One may have issues with his particular choice of words, but this was fair commentary, pure and simple. Given SL’s current position, it’s unnecessary to go into the myriad issues implicated here, except for one they haven't addressed–how did SL identify him? Perhaps our moderators can correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t a subpoena required for the release of personal information about a blogger who chooses to remain anonymous? Judging by the way word spread through cyberspace, it appears that many people have similar concerns. After all, who would want to be the next “Exiled” at a different resort?

It would appear that skiing is more dangerous than many realize, both on and off the slopes.

I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. -Voltaire

 

[wa-loaf]

Given SL’s current position, it’s unnecessary to go into the myriad issues implicated here, except for one they haven't addressed–how did SL identify him?

Read the whole thread and you will get your answer. :smash:

 

[legalskier]

the whole thread :smash:

Objection- hearsay



And please stop hitting me. :smile:

 

[Geoff]

First and foremost, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family; what a horrible thing to go through.

As far as the consequential situation is involved, it’s good to see the matter is being resolved amicably. It’s commendable that SL apologized to the blogger, which addresses actions taken by them in response to his comments reacting to a statement initially made by them to a reporter. In other words, SL put their opinion out there, and he replied. He did not use offensive language, nor did he name anyone personally. He did not use “actions,” but rather “words”–an important distinction. One may have issues with his particular choice of words, but this was fair commentary, pure and simple. Given SL’s current position, it’s unnecessary to go into the myriad issues implicated here, except for one they haven't addressed–how did SL identify him? Perhaps our moderators can correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t a subpoena required for the release of personal information about a blogger who chooses to remain anonymous? Judging by the way word spread through cyberspace, it appears that many people have similar concerns. After all, who would want to be the next “Exiled” at a different resort?

It would appear that skiing is more dangerous than many realize, both on and off the slopes.

I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. -Voltaire

Until you walk a mile in their shoes, I believe that what you are writing here is incredibly uninformed. Why don't you sit down and think for a few minutes about the poor Sugarloaf employee who had to deal with the whole process of the death. Driving to the hospital to find out they died. Notifying the family. The conference call with the press. Every resort has one poor sap who gets stuck with it. Think about if that role fell on you. Think about what your frame of mind would be for several days afterwards. Think about how you would feel when some troll takes a pot shot at you on a message board.

If you shout "Fire" in a crowded movie theater, you can do jail time. That's words. The constitution entitles you to freedom of political speech. It doesn't entitle you to defamation or slander. Sugarloaf had every legal and moral reason to boot the guy off their mountain. They were defending an employee from an incredibly inappropriate pot shot. They had the mutual respect thing exactly right. An ISP account and a computer doesn't give you a god-given right to take pot shots at people and this guy crossed the line. I think some time in the penalty box was completely appropriate under the circumstances. The only reason Sugarloaf caved was the flood of email from a bunch of self-entitled keyboard bullies. ..and most of those probably never do any business with any of the Boyne resorts.

 

[ERJ-145CA]

I knew sooner or later you would offer your thoughts on what was being said here. You have my respect. Thank you for enlightening me further on the situation.
Some times a individual's response has more to do with an emotion from a past experience than with the actual situation.

I work around high voltages. A mistake usually means death. Safety is constantly drilled into our heads. Yet I had a coworker that I worked with for over 20 years die on the job. At first glanced it appearred he had done all the right things but we were determined to learn from this accident. Under close examination of events of that day, we began to see the little things that went wrong. What his mind set was. We learned a lot from his death. We changed our practices, we changed our mind set.
I would encourage you to do the same thing with any serious accident on the mountain. Attempt to learn what happen and make changes. Skiers and snowboarders seem to have a mind set that because this activity is risky, accidents will happen, people will get hurt and some die .. this mind set needs to change .. all accidents are preventable. At risk behavior needs to be understood and modified.
When I am up on the mountain my first concern is not about how much fun I can have or how fast I can go but the safety of others around me. Because the decisions I make can have lasting consequences for me as well as for others around me.
Do you have a Director of Safety?

Correct, in my industry safety is the number one priority and we are trained in all areas that have been known to lead to accidents. We have learned from every past accident and what led up to it, as some people say the rules of aviation are written in blood but this has led the U.S. commercial aviation industry to be among the safest in the world. Beginning in the 1990's there have been quite a few years where there has not been a single fatal U.S. airline accident.

 

[bobbutts]

First and foremost, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family; what a horrible thing to go through.

As far as the consequential situation is involved, it’s good to see the matter is being resolved amicably. It’s commendable that SL apologized to the blogger, which addresses actions taken by them in response to his comments reacting to a statement initially made by them to a reporter. In other words, SL put their opinion out there, and he replied. He did not use offensive language, nor did he name anyone personally. He did not use “actions,” but rather “words”–an important distinction. One may have issues with his particular choice of words, but this was fair commentary, pure and simple. Given SL’s current position, it’s unnecessary to go into the myriad issues implicated here, except for one they haven't addressed–how did SL identify him? Perhaps our moderators can correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t a subpoena required for the release of personal information about a blogger who chooses to remain anonymous? Judging by the way word spread through cyberspace, it appears that many people have similar concerns. After all, who would want to be the next “Exiled” at a different resort?

It would appear that skiing is more dangerous than many realize, both on and off the slopes.

I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. -Voltaire

Posting in a forum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_forum
is not blogging..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog

 

[bobbutts]

Boyne is willing to listen, learn, and admit mistakes and made right on this situation.

 

[bobbutts]

Until you walk a mile in their shoes, I believe that what you are writing here is incredibly uninformed. Why don't you sit down and think for a few minutes about the poor Sugarloaf employee who had to deal with the whole process of the death. Driving to the hospital to find out they died. Notifying the family. The conference call with the press. Every resort has one poor sap who gets stuck with it. Think about if that role fell on you. Think about what your frame of mind would be for several days afterwards. Think about how you would feel when some troll takes a pot shot at you on a message board.

If you shout "Fire" in a crowded movie theater, you can do jail time. That's words. The constitution entitles you to freedom of political speech. It doesn't entitle you to defamation or slander. Sugarloaf had every legal and moral reason to boot the guy off their mountain. They were defending an employee from an incredibly inappropriate pot shot. They had the mutual respect thing exactly right. An ISP account and a computer doesn't give you a god-given right to take pot shots at people and this guy crossed the line. I think some time in the penalty box was completely appropriate under the circumstances. The only reason Sugarloaf caved was the flood of email from a bunch of self-entitled keyboard bullies. ..and most of those probably never do any business with any of the Boyne resorts.

I pretty much completely disagree with all of this. It IS out of bounds to come after someone based on a forum post.. Kircher has admitted this.
If they caved in to pressure it is from forum topics, not emails anyway. And if we believe skircher they actually didn't "cave in" but found a mutually agreeable solution. And calling those who stick up for what they think is right bullies is unfair. Your ISP account is actually a ticket to put your opinion out there right or wrong including (legal) pot shots.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Until you walk a mile in their shoes, I believe that what you are writing here is incredibly uninformed. Why don't you sit down and think for a few minutes about the poor Sugarloaf employee who had to deal with the whole process of the death. Driving to the hospital to find out they died. Notifying the family. The conference call with the press. Every resort has one poor sap who gets stuck with it. Think about if that role fell on you. Think about what your frame of mind would be for several days afterwards. Think about how you would feel when some troll takes a pot shot at you on a message board.

If you shout "Fire" in a crowded movie theater, you can do jail time. That's words. The constitution entitles you to freedom of political speech. It doesn't entitle you to defamation or slander. Sugarloaf had every legal and moral reason to boot the guy off their mountain. They were defending an employee from an incredibly inappropriate pot shot. They had the mutual respect thing exactly right. An ISP account and a computer doesn't give you a god-given right to take pot shots at people and this guy crossed the line. I think some time in the penalty box was completely appropriate under the circumstances. The only reason Sugarloaf caved was the flood of email from a bunch of self-entitled keyboard bullies. ..and most of those probably never do any business with any of the Boyne resorts.

Sorry Geoff, but I really disagree with this. Boyne/SL itself was well out of line in pronouncing at the first opportunity that the girl "lost control of her skis" and that "conditions had nothing to do with it". What Exiled said may have been insensitively communicated, but I'd be just as cynical and disappointed reading that sort of CYA language so early in the process.

 

[Phildozer]

I think it goes two ways. I also hope some people learned that if you cross the line on message boards, there can be consequences for your actions. That post was horribly inappropriate under the circumstances.

Amen.

Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.

 

[Phildozer]

Objection- hearsay



And please stop hitting me. :smile:

Wa-Loaf was actually "hitting on" you.