Ten new lifts for gore and whiteface?

[Kleetus]

invest in snowmaking upgrades!

Regular Gore skier here. Completely agree. They always have issues with snowmaking. Although they did a decent job this season, still should have been able to blow more than they did and had Rumor and Topridge open by now. They just started on Topridge, no sign of them blowing on Rumor. They also don't tend to resurface much after niar events outside of touching up bare spots.

I will be very upset if they don't blow Rumor and open it this season. Although it normally is a sheet of ice, in the Spring it skis great and gets great bumps.

I do agree with replacing the High Peaks chair and adding the lift that goes from the base of the Ski Bowl to the Gore Base. That would eliminate the issue with skating to/from Burnt Ridge and the Ski Bowl and make getting around easier when Echo is closed (which it normally is for racing). Extending/relocating the Hudson Chair with a HSQ is just stupid in my mind.

I also am NOT a fan of the cutting of trails where the existing Barkeater, Tahawus, Twister, and part of Boreas glades are today. Those are some of the best glades at Gore. I understand not everybody skies the trees, but they are a big part of what makes Gore so great when there is natural snow. These trails have been planned for a while, but I hold out hope they stay planned so the glades can stay as they are today, especially at Burnt Ridge.

 

[BenedictGomez]

invest in snowmaking upgrades!

Regular Gore skier here. Completely agree. They always have issues with snowmaking.

This is where the full financial might ORDA can bring should be invested for Whiteface, and where a big investment should be made for Gore as well. It's ridiculously obvious to anyone who skis there even a handful of times per year.

Sadly, however, we get $8 Million gondolas at a place serving 1,000 of vertical. It's a joke.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I also am NOT a fan of the cutting of trails where the existing Barkeater, Tahawus, Twister, and part of Boreas glades are today. Those are some of the best glades at Gore. I understand not everybody skies the trees, but they are a big part of what makes Gore so great when there is natural snow.

Big time.

Were Gore to get rid of these glades, honestly I doubt I'd bother going to Gore anymore. Gore's glades are THE reason I ski a few days at Gore each year. I'm sure there are many like me who hit Gore solely for their glades. It sure isn't for the apres-ski opportunities.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Hadnt looked up the ORDA annual number in a while, so out of curiousity I just did.

As an entire entity, one source says ORDA lost New York $12.2 Million last year, not including depreciation.

Another source put the loss at $20.8M (below). Over $8M in depreciation seems a lot, but I suppose it's possible.

Authority operating losses stood at $20.8 million when the 2016-2017 books were closed out last winter.

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/279716/snowfall-boosts-orda-revenues/

 

[danimals]

Hadnt looked up the ORDA annual number in a while, so out of curiousity I just did.

As an entire entity, one source says ORDA lost New York $12.2 Million last year, not including depreciation.

Another source put the loss at $20.8M (below). Over $8M in depreciation seems a lot, but I suppose it's possible.



http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/279716/snowfall-boosts-orda-revenues/

I know nothing of New York politics besides I like gore and whiteface and love visiting lake placid. Does the money thrown into the economy by visitors to the towns orda operates resorts in offset most of that? Or would people go to lake placid without whiteface?



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

 

[kartski]

I thought I read there's a cap on trail acreage expansion at Whiteface. Could have sworn Ive read that a liftline or two there are closed to skiing because of that cap.

Wonder what these improvements will do towards bringing in more business. Seems Gore and Whiteface are great areas, but most people from NY and NJ still head to VT

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app

It gets real wordy being a Gov. Document but:

https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/constitution.htm

then search for:

ARTICLE XIV

and you get to stuff like:

all of the aforesaid taking not to exceed a total of three hundred acres of state forest preserve land, nor from constructing and maintaining not more than twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more than five miles of such trails shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the north, east and northwest slopes of Whiteface Mountain in Essex county

and it goes on and on. I remember the trail widths were increase to the current limits decades ago. It took a Constitutional Amendment. The Limits are specific to the State owned areas.

 

[benski]

It gets real wordy being a Gov. Document but:

https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/constitution.htm

then search for:

ARTICLE XIV

and you get to stuff like:

all of the aforesaid taking not to exceed a total of three hundred acres of state forest preserve land, nor from constructing and maintaining not more than twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide

So they could build unlimited narrow trails? At Lincoln Peek, Rumble and Valley House Traverse, are narrower than that. I would love to see some 29 foot wide trails built.

 

[gladerider]

BG, i agree with what you said mostly. some of these investments don't make sense, although i like some conveniences.

also, when i heard the news of all these ORDA investments, i thought hmm may be there are shooting to host the olympics one day.
how else can they justify all these expenditures?

 

[cdskier]

Whiteface is already profitable. Were it run better obviously it could make more, but it's not a liability.

Gore would absolutely turn a profit if it was privately owned. There's no doubt. Even if it basically breaks even now, it's a tremendous asset that's essentially being wasted.

Belleayre would go out of business without government charity.

From the last numbers I saw for Belleayre itself (2013-2014 season), Belleayre lost less than $400K. There were a bunch of years where it even turned a slight profit.

As an entire entity, one source says ORDA lost New York $12.2 Million last year, not including depreciation.

Another source put the loss at $20.8M (below). Over $8M in depreciation seems a lot, but I suppose it's possible.

If Belleayre is contributing less than $1M to that ORDA loss and Whiteface is profitable as you state, where is ORDA losing that other $11M+ (excluding the depreciation)? Are they losing that much on the other Olympic venues they run like the ski jump and ice rink? Or are Whiteface (and Gore) not really turning any profits either? Would be very interesting to see if all or any of the 3 NY state run ski areas would survive if they were privately owned.

I personally don't understand the obsession with wanting to put in all these new lifts when you have other areas that need more upgrades like snowmaking as already stated here.

 

[ss20]

I personally don't understand the obsession with wanting to put in all these new lifts when you have other areas that need more upgrades like snowmaking as already stated here.

Otten ski-economics 101... people won't come unless you have tangible improvements. A new gondola is hellova lot more marketable than "we installed xxx new snow guns and increased our pumping capacity by xx%!"

"Snowmaking improvements" won't sell as many lift tickets as a new lift. Every mountain makes "snowmaking improvements" each year. It doesn't separate your hill from the crowd like a shiny new lift. Exception being Mount Snow this year...and that $30 million investment investment could've bought 3 new gondolas.

Not saying ORDA shouldn't invest in snowmaking...just explaining the reasoning.

 

[cdskier]

I get that's what people always say as to the reason...but it still makes no sense to me.

Unless a new lift is accessing a new terrain pod, it generally speaking has no marketing appeal to me (and I'm sure a number of others here as well...granted we're not necessarily "typical" people that would be targeted by said marketing). To me, being able to say "we upgraded our snowmaking so we can cover x% of our trails in y time" is vastly more appealing. What good is a new lift if there are not enough trails covered with snow due to an insufficient snowmaking system?

 

[ss20]

I get that's what people always say as to the reason...but it still makes no sense to me.

Unless a new lift is accessing a new terrain pod, it generally speaking has no marketing appeal to me (and I'm sure a number of others here as well...granted we're not necessarily "typical" people that would be targeted by said marketing). To me, being able to say "we upgraded our snowmaking so we can cover x% of our trails in y time" is vastly more appealing. What good is a new lift if there are not enough trails covered with snow due to an insufficient snowmaking system?

Its on a trail map. It'll sell tickets.

My ski industry conspiracy is that resorts are phasing out those interactive trail maps that were all the rage a few years ago because they paint a bleaker picture than a standard map where most consumers (myself included, if I'm unfamiliar with the mountain) won't bother correlating the text snow report to the regular trail map and see that only x% of terrain is open.

 

[Smellytele]

Its on a trail map. It'll sell tickets.

My ski industry conspiracy is that resorts are phasing out those interactive trail maps that were all the rage a few years ago because they paint a bleaker picture than a standard map where most consumers (myself included, if I'm unfamiliar with the mountain) won't bother correlating the text snow report to the regular trail map and see that only x% of terrain is open.

Don't most ski reports state "x out of y trails open"

 

[kartski]

From the last numbers I saw for Belleayre itself (2013-2014 season), Belleayre lost less than $400K. There were a bunch of years where it even turned a slight profit.



If Belleayre is contributing less than $1M to that ORDA loss and Whiteface is profitable as you state, where is ORDA losing that other $11M+ (excluding the depreciation)? Are they losing that much on the other Olympic venues they run like the ski jump and ice rink? Or are Whiteface (and Gore) not really turning any profits either? Would be very interesting to see if all or any of the 3 NY state run ski areas would survive if they were privately owned.

I personally don't understand the obsession with wanting to put in all these new lifts when you have other areas that need more upgrades like snowmaking as already stated here.

ORDA Maintains all the Olympic Venues. Ski Jumps and Bobsled Tracks might not be big money makers.

http://www.orda.org/corporate/

 

[cdskier]

ORDA Maintains all the Olympic Venues. Ski Jumps and Bobsled Tracks might not be big money makers.

http://www.orda.org/corporate/

Yes, isn't that what I suggested as a possibility of where their loss is coming from? :razz:

You'd think a public entity should have a bit more transparency...

 

[BenedictGomez]

BG, i agree with what you said mostly. some of these investments don't make sense, although i like some conveniences.

also, when i heard the news of all these ORDA investments, i thought hmm may be there are shooting to host the olympics one day.
how else can they justify all these expenditures?

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure Whiteface could meet modern FIS requirements anymore. I'm sure some of the racing aficionados on this board could answer that for sure though.

From a practical standpoint, however, Lake Placid couldn't host an Olympics anymore due to lack of hotel/motel space. Even on a crappy MLK weekend with poor conditions, lodging in Lake Placid gets close to or is sold out.

From the last numbers I saw for Belleayre itself (2013-2014 season), Belleayre lost less than $400K. There were a bunch of years where it even turned a slight profit.

Belleayre loses money. I'm not saying you're wrong because I haven't looked back far enough in years, but there's no recent year I'm aware of when Belleayre made 1¢.

I personally don't understand the obsession with wanting to put in all these new lifts when you have other areas that need more upgrades like snowmaking as already stated here.

Marketing and/or resume building. It's really a shame.

 

[BenedictGomez]

My ski industry conspiracy is that resorts are phasing out those interactive trail maps that were all the rage a few years ago because they paint a bleaker picture than a standard map where most consumers (myself included, if I'm unfamiliar with the mountain) won't bother correlating the text snow report to the regular trail map and see that only x% of terrain is open.

SEE: Jay Peak

They used to have a fantastic interactive trail map online, and it's now been replaced with an old-fashioned "non-interactive" map.

Then again, the entire revised Jay Peak website is an absolute chaotic mess, so that correlation may not be correct.

You'd think a public entity should have a bit more transparency...

Check out ORDA's "Annual Report" sometime. It's completely useless as a financial document (and obviously intentionally so).

 

[cdskier]

Belleayre loses money. I'm not saying you're wrong because I haven't looked back far enough in years, but there's no recent year I'm aware of when Belleayre made 1¢.

In 2011-2012 they made a little over 200K. There are older years too where they made money. It wasn't often, but it did happen several years. I only saw data up to the 2013-2014 season so no idea how much they are or aren't losing since then in the ORDA era. I'm not disputing that in general they lose money, but there are rare instances when it does happen which means it is possible for them to be profitable or at least break even if run properly.

 

[cdskier]

Check out ORDA's "Annual Report" sometime. It's completely useless as a financial document (and obviously intentionally so).

They nicely break out revenues by venue...but that's pretty useless info without knowing the expenses per venue. Their "audited" financial reports are equally useless for that info.

 

[catskills]

In 2011-2012 they made a little over 200K. There are older years too where they made money. It wasn't often, but it did happen several years. I only saw data up to the 2013-2014 season so no idea how much they are or aren't losing since then in the ORDA era. I'm not disputing that in general they lose money, but there are rare instances when it does happen which means it is possible for them to be profitable or at least break even if run properly.

That 200K profit does not include all the sales tax money made on drinks at various bars in the area. I don't know much about economics but I do know skiers and riders like to drink alcohol which is taxed. Also hotel tax which is limited since Belleayre is typically not considered a destination resort.