Right, it doesn't include that and it shouldn't since we're talking purely about the profit/loss of Belleayre itself and not the money the state indirectly makes from Belleayre. It would be hard for someone to argue there's no economic benefit to the region provided by Belleayre, but that isn't the point about Belleayre's own profitability. It should be entirely possible for Belleayre to at the very least operate at a break even point and ideally turn at least a minor profit on its own without needing to calculate the ancillary state revenue brought in via taxes to justify it. My goal was to merely point out that Belleayre has generated a profit some years which means it should be possible to do that again if run properly. It should be an asset for ORDA, not a liability. It is a great mountain with a lot of potential that offers a unique alternative to the other ski resorts in the region.
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Ten new lifts for gore and whiteface?
- Thread starter danimals
- Start date
Right, it doesn't include that and it shouldn't since we're talking purely about the profit/loss of Belleayre itself and not the money the state indirectly makes from Belleayre. It would be hard for someone to argue there's no economic benefit to the region provided by Belleayre, but that isn't the point about Belleayre's own profitability. It should be entirely possible for Belleayre to at the very least operate at a break even point and ideally turn at least a minor profit on its own without needing to calculate the ancillary state revenue brought in via taxes to justify it. My goal was to merely point out that Belleayre has generated a profit some years which means it should be possible to do that again if run properly. It should be an asset for ORDA, not a liability. It is a great mountain with a lot of potential that offers a unique alternative to the other ski resorts in the region.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
Exactly.
And beyond the limited figures they provide, it's a bit worse than that if you read it, it's like propaganda. lol
If a publicly traded company tried to get away with that as their "annual report", the SEC would show-up with a team of auditors and demand to see all your records, and justifiably so.
I dont know how you'd get the honest data, which is sickening given it's the government, I guess someone could submit a FOIA if they were serious about it. The only time I saw the real data was when the independent outside auditing company was brought in to do a full analysis of ORDA and released their findings, and said findings were U-G-L-Y. Now that's a good read if you havent already done so.
I particularly enjoyed this as I was skimming through it earlier:
Not sure what kind of math they're using, but last time I checked $860,000 one year to $858,500 the next year is certainly NOT an "increase of almost $100,000".
Then there was the fact that they can't even spell the word "rebates" correctly...
A simple use of spell-check would pick this up.
I also found it a bit odd that they gave charts showing skier visits for Belleayre and Whiteface, but not Gore. Simple oversight? Or did they intentionally leave it out? There is a note that Gore skier visits for passholders are calculated using a formula and not based on scans. Not sure why they bothered to include that note though when they didn't include the numbers anyway.
gladerider
Active member
not sure what FIS requirements are but if a small town like Pyungchang South Korea can host, i think WF can as well. a quick google tells me that pyungchang's average elevation is 2600 ft and tops out at 3300 ft. i think that's like the catskills.
as to the city's capacity, it's not 1980 anymore. not all events are hosted in a small town. look at vancouver, it was not whistler. maybe a stretch, but it can be nyc or albany olympics. the US team is setting up base camp in an airport city incheon for the pyungchang olympics, which is like 3 hours away. lake placid just needs to build a few buildings to provide lodging for the athletes, other cities can absorb all the other non-athlete participants.
ORDA has its roots in the olympics, i wouldn't be surprised if do go for it.
A number of the skiing events are not being hosted in Pyeongchang for this very reason. They are being hosted at Jeongseon Alpine Centre.
Here are the details on the DH run: "The men's downhill starts at an elevation of 1,370 m (4,495 ft), with a course length of 2.857 km (1.775 mi), to a finish area at 545 m (1,788 ft). The vertical drop of 825 m (2,707 ft) surpasses the minimum drop of 800 m (2,625 ft) required by the International Ski Federation (FIS)."
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
That's where the saying, "it's good enough for government work" comes from. You dont tend to get the best work from the combination of lifetime jobs & zero accountability.
As for the lack of Gore skier visits, I noticed that too, but they've done that for years.
Here's my take. The last year they reported skier visits at Gore was 2010-2011, and they were in a 3 consecutive year decline from a high attendance figure at that point. And the first year they stopped reporting skier visits was 2011-2012, when revenue dropped a whopping 14% from the prior year (i.e. if they showed the data, it would have been a 4th consecutive year of declining skier visits at Gore). So that's not good and probably why they stopped reporting skier visit data at Gore.
And if you just look at the revenue, which they do report, obviously it jumps around from good to poor years, but it's only growing slightly, and my guess is if you took inflation into account, it's pretty non-impressive. My 2¢.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
Yes, but there's only so much they could move, because nowhere around there has the facilities either.
Downhill skiing, snowboarding, luge, skeleton, bobsled, ski jumping, aerials would at a minimum have to be in Wilmington.
I guess cross country skiing & biathlon could be put somewhere else in NY.
Ice hockey and figure skating could be moved to New York City and Albany.
Maybe you put Curling in the rink at Lake Placid. Still have no idea where skier/boarder cross would go. And wouldnt you need to build a building for a speed skating oval or is there an oval somewhere in New York? It's just not feasible IMO, which is why they last talked about a joint DAX/Quebec multi-nation bid for 2026, but I dont know if that went anywhere.
Most ski areas include real estate sales in the profit loss. Unfortunately ORDA does not have the option to sell real estate for ski in / ski out . For example, Windham mountain sold a postage size land plot between two trails for $5 million. That is nice money if you can get it. Of course a tunnel had to be built under one of the trails.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
I just found ORDA's audited financial statement (i.e. non-propaganda) online and depreciation was indeed $8M.
Apples and oranges...the profits from real estate sales go to the ski area that owned and sold the real estate. Alcohol tax (or any taxes for that matter) are not paid to ORDA. It is irrelevant that ORDA doesn't have the option to sell real estate. Just because they can't generate revenue from real estate sales doesn't mean we should start including other things that are paid to other state entities when talking about how profitable Belleayre/ORDA is. Belleayre pays a power company for electric. That company in theory pays NY State corporate taxes. Should we consider that as well when talking about Belleayre's profit/loss for a given year? (Yes, a bit of an extreme analogy perhaps...but this is basically what you're saying with your mention of tax revenue generated due to people buying alcohol at or near Belleayre when they visit).
Harvey
Well-known member
I'd like to see the numbers you are referencing here. I've never been able to discern this from publicly available info.
Your statements don't match what those on the inside share privately.
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mbedle
Well-known member
I'll second this - I find it hard to believe that Whiteface makes any money when you take into account the millions that are allocated to this resort to complete upgrades. Under private ownership, that money would be in the form of a loan, with payments and interest.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
I'm making an assumption on Whiteface being profitable, but it's a good assumption as it's ORDA's top revenue contributor at roughly 30%. If Whiteface were bleeding money, I think the ORDA losses would be much worse, but you're correct it's only an assumption on my part and may be wrong, but I don't think that's likely the case unless some other area(s) are very profitable, which I dont think's likely?
Belleayre doesn't make money, or if there are some spotty black years as CDskier notes, they're minimal, because I dont see how you can make those numbers work with the top-line revenue they report, and adding an $8M capital expenditure to those figures for 2017 isnt going to help any. Call me cynical, but I dont think people are fleeing other Catskill areas or not driving to Vermont because Bell added a gondy serving 950 vertical feet (or whatever it is).
The real problem here is that we have to "guess" or "assume" or listen to rumors "shared privately" given this is a government institution. In a word, it is a disgrace. And I wish some lawyer(s) or concerned citizen group with $$$ would attack New York State over this, because if someone fought it, the numbers would have to be released. I can tell you there is nothing "independent" about ORDA's "independent audited financial statements", because there's no accounting firm in the word who would take the time to audit every piece of a business, and then NOT provide that basic and most-relevant data. It's obvious New York State is "instructing" that accounting firm to not release that information. Why? Because it's ugly. "Independent", indeed!
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
That's my prediction of what will eventually happen.
ORDA is going to collapse, and one of more or all of the ski areas will eventually be sold to private buyers. Might take 25 years, but I think that will happen. The disinfecting light of transparency could help speed that process were it ever to occur.
The ORDA Annual Report does say in the Whiteface section that Whiteface had record profits in 2016-2017...what those profits are though is a mystery. I would agree though that if Whiteface was constantly posting losses, ORDA's overall losses would be much greater.
kartski
New member
Every 20 years, New Yorkers get to vote on whether to have a Constitutional Convention. It failed again this year. The Citizens know that Money will get a bigger seat at the table than they will. So the situation remains unchanged. They can go under and close. Any sale would require passage in the Assembly, then the Senate, wait an election cycle, pass the Assembly, pass the Senate and then it becomes a Ballot Measure for the Voters to decide. Back in the late 80's, early 90's, they did all of that just to widen the trails in the State Areas. Yea, we really don't trust the politicians to sell assets, cheap to there buddies.
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