Tenney Mountain

[Killingtime]

Why do they need a new lodge at all? That was one of the nicer features about the place.

Snowmaking and lifts are the primary needs there. If nothing else, put a mid station on the Hornet

Yes, the lodge is fine. Some fresh paint, a good scrubbing and its good to go. Lifts, snowmaking and throw this thing on some passes like the Indy to get it back on the radar.

 

[thetrailboss]

Egan is a dreamer and is no longer there. The owner himself is a pretty practical guy. No coincidence it was dropped.

It's easy to dream when it is not your money on the line.....

 

[jimmywilson69]

if they have $30 million to burn, that buys a lot of snowmaking and lift infrastructure. Hell even half that would be a massive investment.

 

[deadheadskier]

While I'm certainly rooting for Tenney, who in their right mind is dropping $30M on improvements at a ski area like that? Do these folks have $300M net worths?

 

[Newpylong]

Nobody, that's why they told the Planning Board the new lodge is off... It will be phased upgrades to the snowmaking, lifts, then lodge along with real estate.

 

[2planks2coasts]

Egan is a dreamer and is no longer there. The owner himself is a pretty practical guy. No coincidence it was dropped.

It's easy to dream when it is not your money on the line.....

The (absurd) lodge project was announced well before Egan was hired.

Glad it's been dropped / delayed though. The lodge is great as is. Replacing the summit chair is fine, if a bit disappointing. They certainly don't need a HSQ or gondola though. A Fixed Grip Quad with loading carpet would serve even their most aspirational crowds at much lower cost. Maybe buy used and hire the folks from Magic to consult on installation ( ).

 

[Newpylong]

The (absurd) lodge project was announced well before Egan was hired.

Glad it's been dropped / delayed though. The lodge is great as is. Replacing the summit chair is fine, if a bit disappointing. They certainly don't need a HSQ or gondola though. A Fixed Grip Quad with loading carpet would serve even their most aspirational crowds at much lower cost. Maybe buy used and hire the folks from Magic to consult on installation ( ).

Absolutely, my point was Dan has big visions (I can't blame him) which don't always jive with reality.

Folks need to be realistic that a 6,000 foot fixed grip is not likely to draw the numbers they need to be successful long term. They don't have the terrain or following that places like Magic, Smuggs and Bolton have. If they want to get back on the map it's going to take a detachable (quad) to do so. But yes, it won't be cheap. Luckily the owner is a successful businessman and seems to have access to capital.

I think TENNEY has an advantage over some of the other 93 competitors in that they have a sizable local population that could bring in enough revenue with mid-week programming so that it's not an entirely losing proposition mid-week. I think a return of night skiing is an absolute must to achieve this end.

Also if and when a new lift is put in they absolutely need to reconfigure the trail network so that you can ski the entire Eclipse side from the summit so that they only have to run one chair unless it's busy. They're planning on regrading a green off the top already.

 

[deadheadskier]

Absolutely, my point was Dan has big visions (I can't blame him) which don't always jive with reality.

Folks need to be realistic that a 6,000 foot fixed grip is not likely to draw the numbers they need to be successful long term. They don't have the terrain or following that places like Magic, Smuggs and Bolton have. If they want to get back on the map it's going to take a detachable (quad) to do so. But yes, it won't be cheap. Luckily the owner is a successful businessman and seems to have access to capital.

I think TENNEY has an advantage over some of the other 93 competitors in that they have a sizable local population that could bring in enough revenue with mid-week programming so that it's not an entirely losing proposition mid-week. I think a return of night skiing is an absolute must to achieve this end.

Also if and when a new lift is put in they absolutely need to reconfigure the trail network so that you can ski the entire Eclipse side from the summit so that they only have to run one chair unless it's busy. They're planning on regrading a green off the top already.

You really think they'll put a HSQ in? They have the funds and it's on the road map?

I agree, that's what it would take to be viable long term. Not sure on the night skiing possibilities, but maybe. Be curious how many folks in the Plymouth and Franklin area head to Gunstock or Pat's.

Does a HSQ and snowmaking improvements make the place similarly popular as say 2008 Ragged? Maybe

That would be a cool turn around story.

 

[Smellytele]

You really think they'll put a HSQ in? They have the funds and it's on the road map?

I agree, that's what it would take to be viable long term. Not sure on the night skiing possibilities, but maybe. Be curious how many folks in the Plymouth and Franklin area head to Gunstock or Pat's.

Does a HSQ and snowmaking improvements make the place similarly popular as say 2008 Ragged? Maybe

That would be a cool turn around story.

For night skiing think Plymouth college.

 

[2planks2coasts]

Plymouth State would provide some night skiing demand, but with current ticket prices, PSU students only pay $5, so not much revenue.

Disagree that a HSQ is what they need. Running a HSQ requires so much more in terms of maintenance and staffing (thus higher ticket prices) that it's likely not worth it. They might very well get one, but it's not what they need. Now, put in a faster FG lift, improve snowmaking, keep prices low for the next 4-5 seasons and increase skier visits, then HSQ discussion (for expansion) becomes appropriate.

 

[bigbob]

Absolutely, my point was Dan has big visions (I can't blame him) which don't always jive with reality.

Folks need to be realistic that a 6,000 foot fixed grip is not likely to draw the numbers they need to be successful long term. They don't have the terrain or following that places like Magic, Smuggs and Bolton have. If they want to get back on the map it's going to take a detachable (quad) to do so. But yes, it won't be cheap. Luckily the owner is a successful businessman and seems to have access to capital.

I think TENNEY has an advantage over some of the other 93 competitors in that they have a sizable local population that could bring in enough revenue with mid-week programming so that it's not an entirely losing proposition mid-week. I think a return of night skiing is an absolute must to achieve this end.

Also if and when a new lift is put in they absolutely need to reconfigure the trail network so that you can ski the entire Eclipse side from the summit so that they only have to run one chair unless it's busy. They're planning on regrading a green off the top already.

Friends of mine are buying a house in Hebron a few miles down the road and will be getting season passes at Tenney.

 

[deadheadskier]

Plymouth State would provide some night skiing demand, but with current ticket prices, PSU students only pay $5, so not much revenue.

Disagree that a HSQ is what they need. Running a HSQ requires so much more in terms of maintenance and staffing (thus higher ticket prices) that it's likely not worth it. They might very well get one, but it's not what they need. Now, put in a faster FG lift, improve snowmaking, keep prices low for the next 4-5 seasons and increase skier visits, then HSQ discussion (for expansion) becomes appropriate.

I guess it really depends on how much money the owners really have and are willing to spend today. While I see your point on installation and operational costs being lower with a FG chair, I don't see replacing the Hornet with a carpet loaded chair moving the needle much on skier visits because it's still a 6000 foot long chair and even with a carpet loader , you're only looking at what? 450 feet per minute for speed? That's still a 14 minute ride. The market of modern skiers that tolerate that long of a slow chair is really small and basically only is successful at places with really compelling expert terrain off such a chair. Basically Magic and Smuggs is it.

And how realistic is it to expect them to replace that chair in 4-5 seasons, especially if they aren't generating a significant increase in skier visits and hence operational profits to fund a HSQ? I'd say that's pretty unlikely and they stick with that FG for at least 10 years to get their money out of it. The closest scenario I can think of regionally is Crotched and that was 9 years and the conversion to a HSQ probably only happened because they got Ascutney's lift for really cheap.

Put in a HSQ today and with the right marketing, the place has instant credibility as a viable alternative for families to go to instead of Sunapee, Ragged, Crotched, Gunstock, Waterville and Loon.

I think of Saddleback and I bet if you asked the Berry's they'd say their biggest regret was not prioritizing replacing the Rangeley chair with a HSQ. And that lift is only 4500 feet and services vastly better terrain than the 6000 foot Hornet. We spend February vacation every year now at Saddleback and it's because of the HSQ. We would not be doing that if they still had the old double.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I look at my personal experience at Tenney. I bought a pass there for $99 for the 08-09 season. I only used it 6 times and the reason I didn't use it more was because of the slow ass Hornet. I ended up switching the following season to Ragged because it was still really cheap and they had a high speed chair.

 

[bigbob]

Perhaps they could have Dopp install a refurbished detachable quad to save a few bucks like Loon and the Loaf have done. 6000' is plenty long for a detach.

 

[Newpylong]

Replying to multiple posts:

Yes night skiing viable due to the college.

A HSQ is not going in tomorrow, or likely next year. They're going to first work on being able to put a dependable product down and get more true visitation numbers before committing. That said, if you think a detachable would be a waste of money, another fixed grip would be even more so. They would have a modernized lift, but not one that provides more actual value to customers except being able to load 4 people vs 2. The Hornet already runs between 400-425 FPM and the max speed of a carpet loading fixed grip quad is 425 FPM. It is a long ride at 14-ish minutes. Going to a FGQ as DHS says does not move the needle. Tenney is in a tough spot competition wise. In this day and edge people simply want high speed lifts outside of a few edge cases I already mentioned above. They have even more of an uphill battle because they have been anemic for so many years.

In regard to Ragged - that's a comparison that certainly popped in my head. I think Tenney certainly could land in that category (local + flatlander family draw who doesn't want any thrills) if they do it right. I am not sure how much they can feasibly eat away at Ragged's customer base though, that place is such a well-oiled machine with a large following. That said, I think there definitely is a market for the aforementioned type of customer that theoretically would go to Tenney vs continuing up 93 to the other areas you mentioned.

I think they have their work cut out for them but certainly they need dependable coverage (and a better novice area) before moving on to anything else. I think teaming up with the college and the town in any way possible will go a long way towards their success.

 

[IceEidolon]

The deal with HSQ and I know Newpylong knows this too, is the dramatically higher lift maintenance costs - they've got a chicken and egg problem where if they don't scale up their operation before installing it, the new HSQ will just be a faster way to burn money. But that draw would help ramp up skier visits. Hopefully a couple years of reliable "both summits by Christmas, all four snowmaking trails by MLK" as a minimum will let them build some momentum before the big jump.

My opinion is they'd better get a green off the top with snowmaking ASAP, ideally alongside/as a connection to the Eclipse summit. (Alongside already announced projects - snowmaking on Hornet blues and blacks is also important.)

 

[2planks2coasts]

The deal with HSQ and I know Newpylong knows this too, is the dramatically higher lift maintenance costs - they've got a chicken and egg problem where if they don't scale up their operation before installing it, the new HSQ will just be a faster way to burn money...............

This. A very, very quick way to burn money.

While their lifts are notoriously slow, I think the public is more tolerant of that than most here think. Especially for the cheap prices they offer. In the right marketing hands, it's spun as a nostalgic advantage. Pleasant (nee Shawnee) has run for 86 years without a HSQ and is just getting their first installed now. And they're in the just as crowded MWV market.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think Pleasant is a fair comparison.

Pleasant summit chair is only 4k feet. So their carpet loaded triple took only about 10 minutes vs 14+ for the Hornet. That's a significant difference.

Pleasant also has a vastly better location and far less competition. It is the only game in town for Portland metro locals AND it can draw tourists from the MWV. Pleasant also has IMO, vastly better terrain than Tenney.

Tenney has vastly more competition, so they need something more of a draw than just "cheap."

 

[JDMRoma]

I don't think Pleasant is a fair comparison.

Pleasant summit chair is only 4k feet. So their carpet loaded triple took only about 10 minutes vs 14+ for the Hornet. That's a significant difference.

Pleasant also has a vastly better location and far less competition. It is the only game in town for Portland metro locals AND it can draw tourists from the MWV. Pleasant also has IMO, vastly better terrain than Tenney.

Tenney has vastly more competition, so they need something more of a draw than just "cheap."

Yes cheep is good, fun little place too once you get your head around the slow lift. I'd rather sit on a chair than stand in line at Loon. Trails not being crowded is nice.

They need to fix the access road, you can lose a filling or 2 driving in !

Really hope they make it, its got a great vibe. I will definately be back, maybe a pass the following season if all goes well !

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't think Pleasant is a fair comparison.

Pleasant summit chair is only 4k feet. So their carpet loaded triple took only about 10 minutes vs 14+ for the Hornet. That's a significant difference.

Pleasant also has a vastly better location and far less competition. It is the only game in town for Portland metro locals AND it can draw tourists from the MWV. Pleasant also has IMO, vastly better terrain than Tenney.

Tenney has vastly more competition, so they need something more of a draw than just "cheap."

I've got to agree. Speaking only for Tenney, the Hornet is just too slow. It needs to be much faster. A 14-minute ride is not even 1990's skiing. The terrain, except for a few isolated spots, is fairly mellow and I think has character, but they need to have sustainable snow to make it work. Repainting the lifts will not draw interest. I also agree that re-starting night skiing and marking it to PSU students would really help.

It is in a good location but has a lot of competition. It not only has to compete with Cannon, Loon, and WV, but it has to compete with Ragged, Pats, Crotched, Sunapee, and Gunstock. Of those areas, you're dealing with two publicly owned areas, Vail, AND Boyne.

The pivot towards snowmaking and lift work is a good one, but I will believe it when I see it.

 

[doublediamond]

Tenney has very long spacing on the double chairs. Could they crank it up to the max under code of 500 fpm? That would save 2 min right there with only the cost of an upgraded motor if even that.