The 2011-2012 Ski Area Improvement Thread

[deadheadskier]

Id hold my breath on that one. I haven't worked in Killington F&B, but have seen the financials for other mountains summit restaurants. 1.5 mil in profit for a good summer season is not unheard of.

I will say, that building has been such a shithole for so long that it might take a few years before that stigma is gone.

1.5M in total revenue would be a good summer season for that space. Definitely not profit. Eastern ski areas don't do come close to the F&B revenue figures of western resorts. Snowshoe is one of the top 10 busiest eastern ski resorts. They did 7.5M in total F&B revenue in 2002-2003. That's a 500K skier visit a year resort with extensive summer operations.

 

[Nick]

I'm excited for the K lodge, although I think it had an end date of Dec 2012, which is a ways away.

Also really psyched for the new lifts @ Sugarloaf.

 

[Geoff]

don't hold your breath

If that building brings in more than $500K profit in wedding, meeting and seasonal F&B operations each year, I'd be shocked. That's many, many years to fund a $5M lift when you factor in recovering the initial capital investment to build it.

I'd be rooting for a 50 unit slopeside condo development to fund your lift more than the Peak Lodge.

First, the new Peak Lodge is mostly about giving people a reason to come to Killington. All of the Killington day lodges are disasters. The Peak Lodge was the worst so it was obviously first on the list to be torn down and reconstructed. The Killington problem isn't lack of wedding business in July though it's nice to have an attraction that brings a couple of hundred people into town every weekend who ordinarily would be elsewhere. The Killington problem is lack of people during peak ski season. ...particulary people who are dialing the Killington 800 number or booking lodging through the Killington web site. Even at Christmas, MLK, and Presidents week, the resort no longer gets to 100% occupancy.

Second, POWDR is completely decoupled from the profits from slopeside condo developments. The Texas H.L. Hunt oil money people from Eiger Fund / E2M / SP Land own the land. At best, POWDR is a junior partner and is unlikely to ever see a dime of real estate development profit. It's like investing in a blockbuster movie where there is a 100 million production budget, distribution fees, .... By the time all the Chinese bookkeeping is done, the minority investor doesn't make much of anything.

I think a new Peak Lodge is a great second step. The Skye Peak Express was a good first step.

If it were me, the next lift improvement I'd do is turn the Rams Head HS quad into a 6-pack as part of installing a HSQ elsewhere. If it were my decision, I'd replace the Snowdon triple and keep the Snowdon quad in reserve for wind hold and ice hold days. That gives people a viable alternative when the K1 line is backed up. I'd also blast/grade that area so it's not so much of an uphill slog from the Great Northern novice trail or from the KBL.

 

[deadheadskier]

I thought you were against a HS lift on Snowdon due to the increased capacity killing the tree skiing in the area?

 

[EPB]

From a newsletter I just received from Jay:

Thanks for the info JPT.

 

[riverc0il]

A friend of mine whose son is in one of the Franconia Ski Club's race programs tells me they're engaged in a fundraising project to refit the Vista Way - Bypass - PFE - Paulie's Folly route for a downhill race course. (The rumor that was discussed here a couple months ago about a trail between Skylight and Ravine was an earlier iteration of this idea.) Apparently there's a lack of FIS-certifiable downhill courses in the East, and Cannon is one of the few mountains with sufficient consistent vertical. This is based on a conversation in the base lodge about two months ago, so I may be misremembering details.

That would be one heckuva run. Though they would have to snow make on Vista to get that working. I wonder why they are looking at Paulie's instead of Avalanche? This type of setup takes a lot of trails off line including Paulie's, Avalanche, and all of the Banshee slopes. Additionally, it would really make it hard to cut back to the tram, perhaps even limiting the tram to race only operations? I don't like it any more than other suggestion of Skylight to Ravine. FSC is a cool program but Cannon's racing heritage is just that: heritage. I can't see anything more than a Slalom or GS run off the Front Five without being overly invasive of mountain operations.

Regarding the Cannonball Quad motor... I was beginning to think that I was just delusional about that chair running slower than it used to. I assume the motor upgrade Puck It refers to means that it is indeed running slower than it used to? That would make me feel less delusional.

I'd be okay with snowmaking on Mittersill's main runs. Given the current budget situation, I doubt it will be happening this coming off season.

 

[Newpylong]

Vista Way does not have snowmaking right now does it?

Profile/Cannonball was originally the liftline for the Two Upper T-bars, yes. I apparently didn't save the email, but Cannon Guest Services tells me they changed the name to establish "Cannonball" as a stronger part of Cannon's brand identity (or something like that), to go along with the Cannonball Quad and the Cannonball Pub. (This makes me wonder if the loud (and generally excellent) music at the bottom of Cannonball is intentional mountain policy, as opposed to being on the lifties' initiative as I've been assuming.)

A friend of mine whose son is in one of the Franconia Ski Club's race programs tells me they're engaged in a fundraising project to refit the Vista Way - Bypass - PFE - Paulie's Folly route for a downhill race course. (The rumor that was discussed here a couple months ago about a trail between Skylight and Ravine was an earlier iteration of this idea.) Apparently there's a lack of FIS-certifiable downhill courses in the East, and Cannon is one of the few mountains with sufficient consistent vertical. This is based on a conversation in the base lodge about two months ago, so I may be misremembering details.

 

[Newpylong]

I agree 100%.

Ram's Head lines are the worst on the mountain and they could use a 6 pack there. They could use the HSQ to replace the Snowdon Triple. Having the Snowdon lift closest to K1 be High Speed will help get people out of the base, without affecting traffic in the "Snowdon Bowl".

First, the new Peak Lodge is mostly about giving people a reason to come to Killington. All of the Killington day lodges are disasters. The Peak Lodge was the worst so it was obviously first on the list to be torn down and reconstructed. The Killington problem isn't lack of wedding business in July though it's nice to have an attraction that brings a couple of hundred people into town every weekend who ordinarily would be elsewhere. The Killington problem is lack of people during peak ski season. ...particulary people who are dialing the Killington 800 number or booking lodging through the Killington web site. Even at Christmas, MLK, and Presidents week, the resort no longer gets to 100% occupancy.

Second, POWDR is completely decoupled from the profits from slopeside condo developments. The Texas H.L. Hunt oil money people from Eiger Fund / E2M / SP Land own the land. At best, POWDR is a junior partner and is unlikely to ever see a dime of real estate development profit. It's like investing in a blockbuster movie where there is a 100 million production budget, distribution fees, .... By the time all the Chinese bookkeeping is done, the minority investor doesn't make much of anything.

I think a new Peak Lodge is a great second step. The Skye Peak Express was a good first step.

If it were me, the next lift improvement I'd do is turn the Rams Head HS quad into a 6-pack as part of installing a HSQ elsewhere. If it were my decision, I'd replace the Snowdon triple and keep the Snowdon quad in reserve for wind hold and ice hold days. That gives people a viable alternative when the K1 line is backed up. I'd also blast/grade that area so it's not so much of an uphill slog from the Great Northern novice trail or from the KBL.

 

[AdironRider]

1.5M in total revenue would be a good summer season for that space. Definitely not profit. Eastern ski areas don't do come close to the F&B revenue figures of western resorts. Snowshoe is one of the top 10 busiest eastern ski resorts. They did 7.5M in total F&B revenue in 2002-2003. That's a 500K skier visit a year resort with extensive summer operations.

I agree, was more commenting on the fact that the potential is there. You and I both know banquets have the most gravy on top. Killington has the skier visits (regardless of what they used to be, approx 650k is still a grip of people) and lets face it, who hasn't heard of them, to support this kind of venture.

That building still has looked like crap for a long time now. Its definitely not the first place that would come to mind currently. People love these summit places though. Money flows when executed properly. Once paid for, the building should provide a nice budget boost, especially during the lean summer months.

 

[oakapple]

First, the new Peak Lodge is mostly about giving people a reason to come to Killington. All of the Killington day lodges are disasters. The Peak Lodge was the worst so it was obviously first on the list to be torn down and reconstructed.

If they design it right, they ought to be able to do enough catering and events business to service the debt, which is all they need. Also, the restaurant will almost certainly be nicer than what is there now, so they'll get better revenues during the ski season itself. It really is a no-brainer.

I wouldn't say all the lodges are disasters, but they are certainly substandard for a resort of that size.

If it were me, the next lift improvement I'd do is turn the Rams Head HS quad into a 6-pack as part of installing a HSQ elsewhere. If it were my decision, I'd replace the Snowdon triple and keep the Snowdon quad in reserve for wind hold and ice hold days. That gives people a viable alternative when the K1 line is backed up. I'd also blast/grade that area so it's not so much of an uphill slog from the Great Northern novice trail or from the KBL.

I think they'll do something at Snowdon before replacing the Ramshead Quad. For some reason, though, they seem to be intent on replacing the Snowdon Quad, not the triple. The alleged reason is that the existing quad, which is newer equipment, will replace the South Ridge Triple.

 

[RootDKJ]

Elk is busy replacing some trees.

Spring is slow to move in this year, but the crews are already busy removing hard wood trees for the Spruce trees program. This summer, all the deciduous trees between the Chippewa and Tecumseh will be removed to plant entirely with Spruce trees.

http://www.elkskier.com/photoday.html

 

[Sparky]

Why are they replacing the deciduous trees?

 

[dmc]

Elk is busy replacing some trees.

Interesting they are doing this..

I''m assuming the same thing happened in the Poconos that happened in the Catskills where all the pine trees were chopped down for wood and tanning..
the destruction was so blatant and horrible that it prompted a famous painting called "Hunter Mountain, Twilight"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Hunter_Mountain,_Twilight.jpg

After all the hemlocks were forested, the deciduous trees took over..
But now a lot of those trees are dying and the hemlocks are starting to come back in places..
I've thought about doing exactly what Elk is doing...

When we "trim" at Hunter - we never trim a hemlock.. At least I don't..

 

[RootDKJ]

Why are they replacing the deciduous trees?

Interesting they are doing this..

I''m assuming the same thing happened in the Poconos that happened in the Catskills where all the pine trees were chopped down for wood and tanning..
the destruction was so blatant and horrible that it prompted a famous painting called "Hunter Mountain, Twilight"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Hunter_Mountain,_Twilight.jpg

After all the hemlocks were forested, the deciduous trees took over..
But now a lot of those trees are dying and the hemlocks are starting to come back in places..
I've thought about doing exactly what Elk is doing...

When we "trim" at Hunter - we never trim a hemlock.. At least I don't..

I have no idea. On the lift, someone told me that they vary the shape and flow of the trails from time to time. On the left, you can see some of their previous years efforts.

 

[deadheadskier]

Never seen anything like what Elk is doing. I'd be interested to hear how well it goes. Also would be interested to hear how the newly planted trees handle snowmaking.

 

[RootDKJ]

Never seen anything like what Elk is doing. I'd be interested to hear how well it goes. Also would be interested to hear how the newly planted trees handle snowmaking.

From what I understand, all trees are off limits at Elk.

 

[deadheadskier]

From what I understand, all trees are off limits at Elk.

what I was referring to is snowmaking blowing into the trees. It can do a number on trees.

I'm curious because there are places like OZ at Sunday River that would be much better with a few Spruce stands mixed in.

 

[RootDKJ]

what I was referring to is snowmaking blowing into the trees. It can do a number on trees.

I'm curious because there are places like OZ at Sunday River that would be much better with a few Spruce stands mixed in.

Gotcha.

 

[mondeo]

what I was referring to is snowmaking blowing into the trees. It can do a number on trees.

I'm curious because there are places like OZ at Sunday River that would be much better with a few Spruce stands mixed in.

Or Big Dipper at K. Or some other tree to replace all the ones that have died recently.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yes, the Canyon area at K was the 2nd place I had in mind in the east that would benefit from regen zones.