The "Sugarbush Thread"

[benski]

Back to the rfid thing. I have rfid Dutch metro cards and apartment key. The metro card can't scan threw a wallet and the key card only works without reliably when I don't carry my credit cards.

 

[Hawk]

From my view I'm "content" with the current system, but at the same time like Hawk says it'd be nice to be able to run guns on 2 or 3 T2B loops simultaneously like some of our competitors can. My only argument is that if you want to do that, you have to increase water capacity up the mountain. To do that, you have to take a serious look at the pond capacity. If there are no plans to increase water pumping capacity, then your current pond size is "acceptable".

2 or 3 loops??? I would be satisfied right now with the ability to blow one continuous run from top to bottom. For instance, right now if you pay attention they can do something like Upper jester and 1/2 of spring Fling. They can not do a complete run all the way down. Any time they try to stretch and do more they end up running into issues like wet guns. That is why I have always said the issue is with the air. But everybody takes Wins word and preaches water. Wet guns do not equal water issues. Now people are going to read this and say, well temps are the issue or web bulb temp or something like that. If that is the case then why are the wet guns not just located down low. The are higher up the hill with more than adequate temps. Just saying.

 

[tnt1234]

Just get all this sorted out by X-mas week, OK? Would like to have everything open by then. Hike to castlerock is acceptable. Thanks!

 

[benski]

2 or 3 loops??? I would be satisfied right now with the ability to blow one continuous run from top to bottom. For instance, right now if you pay attention they can do something like Upper jester and 1/2 of spring Fling. They can not do a complete run all the way down. Any time they try to stretch and do more they end up running into issues like wet guns. That is why I have always said the issue is with the air. But everybody takes Wins word and preaches water. Wet guns do not equal water issues. Now people are going to read this and say, well temps are the issue or web bulb temp or something like that. If that is the case then why are the wet guns not just located down low. The are higher up the hill with more than adequate temps. Just saying.

That's because we know there snowmakers don't check frequently and maybe they are not being adjusted correctly. Nobody denies that.

 

[shadyjay]

That's because we know there snowmakers don't check frequently and maybe they are not being adjusted correctly. Nobody denies that.

I'd beg to differ.....

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

I'd beg to differ.....

Well then, they are gonna want to you explain the wet guns! :grin:

 

[IceEidolon]

If you have low water pressure on HKD/stick guns, that can cause wet guns.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk

 

[shadyjay]

First off, I believe we set a record Tuesday night, with having 200 guns running between both mountains, and Lincoln Peak water supply maxed out (at around 3500-3600 gpm), along with air. The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow. That's the nature of the beast. They run with considerable less air. In the old days, the initial lightup would have required all 3 compressors going, and we'd maybe get 20 guns online, only on upper Jester. Now we can get guns all the way from the summit to the base of Heaven's Gate. That's what we did Monday night. And had upper OG going. And all of that on a single compressor (a tremendous savings in electricity), which is a smaller size than the old 3 (we still have the older 2 6000s plus the 1 newer one - last year I believe we just ran one of the 6000s the entire season). Tuesday night, we killed most of OG to get Snowball and half of Fling online, plus guns in the base area, while continuing to run on Jester and DS. The next couple nights, we will be seeing close to mid winter temps and should be able to push out a lot of water on SB, Fling, and Downspout. I'm not sure if we will be running on Jester the next couple nights, since it makes sense to push the water onto lower mountain, then go back up top when temps moderate in the base later in the weekend. The towers on SB and Fling are designed to run at higher pressure and aren't as wet as the Snow logic land guns up on Jester (they also have more hang time, being up on towers).

IIRC, the limit right now on water is the size of the pipe and the distance it travels to get from the pond, up the Access Rd, into CB1. Last year, we had water issues and sucked the pond dry due to the dry fall. This year, it doesn't appear we'll have that issue (fingers crossed).

We are still hiring snowmakers, so if anyone is interested in how it gets done, put in an app and come join us. Then, when you get done with a gun run and are soaking wet and need an hour to dry off before going back up, you'll know how I feel when I see a comment that we're not checking them frequently enough. Plus, there's the "tenants for turns" program which if you rent a room in your home/condo to an employee, you can get a pass for dirt cheap or a SHaRC membership. Inquire at sugarbush.com.

Again, as I say year after year, it's not as easy as a lot of you think. We do our best with the amount of people we have and the resources provided. It's not as simple as just lighting up guns and moving on. There's 300+ pages in this thread to look back and see the debates from the past several years. I think we're ahead of the game this year and after this weekend, we should be looking real good.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

thank you for your hard work, we appreciate it

 

[cdskier]

Thanks Shady for the work you guys do! And thanks for the detailed explanations of things from an "insider" perspective.

I'll gladly take 200 guns with slightly wetter snow over 20 guns the old way...plus there are plenty of times I've seen amazing dry snow come out of the guns (I'm thinking of some great runs on Steins under the guns a couple years ago). Those are probably the tower guns you're referring to that run at higher pressure than the snow-logic land guns though, which could be part of the reason I'm sure.

 

[WWF-VT]

From John Atkinson Stoke Exchange:

"Major investments in new efficient snowguns, lots of veteran staff and some arctic blasts have allowed us to start coating 15 trails already, including a new first way to get top-to-bottom at Lincoln Peak. Typically, we shoot for Jester to Downspout to Lower Jester to Coffee Run. We're currently on the Valley House side, working to link Jester to Valley House Traverse to Snowball to Spring Fling. Organgrinder and Downspout at Lincoln Peak, and Rim Run and Elbow at Mt. Ellen are getting attention too."

Top of Jester to the bottom of Spring Fling is one helluva long top to bottom route down Lincoln Peak.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I would argue that its a much better route too! Plus it allows the crowds to disperse a little and hopefully ease up the pressure on Deathspout early season!

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

They have (or had if it had an expiration date) a permit to dig that current pond to a depth to allow it to hold ~60M gallons from what I recall. It is only dug to a depth currently to hold about 1/3-1/2 of that. Digging it to the full depth certainly would not be cheap, but not being able to make snow in a lean snow year due to lack of water is also very costly (and could hurt even more in the long run if you lose business to competitors). Also keep in mind that last year wasn't the first time they ran out of water. Usually it happens later in the season once snow-making is less important and they can get away with not making more.

I don't want to get into the climate change debate as I'm not necessarily convinced of the impacts on skiing either way, but having a reliable water supply for snow-making is not something I would risk for long term sustainability. Stowe built a 110M gallon pond not too long ago. Mt Snow just finished their new 120M gallon pond. So saying it can't be done in VT when there's 2 very recent examples of it being done is not a great argument. You can argue that Mt Snow is further south and has more of a need for snow-making than SB...but Stowe is further north and yet has significantly more water storage than SB does. With Stowe now being Epic and relatively cheap for a season pass...do we really want to take a chance of running out of water while Stowe is able to keep pumping it out?

I also don't think my statement was drastic. Even this year, the flow in the Mad River was below average from mid-September until late October when they finally received some well timed precipitation. (It was even below the flow of that same time-period the year prior when we did have water shortage issues).

I'm not saying this is the first thing they need to address, but I really don't think you can have a serious conversation about increasing water pumping capacity from the pond to the mountain without also talking about increasing your pond size. The two need to go hand in hand. Relying only on the hope that the Mad River will be flowing enough every year to keep the pond constantly refilling as you suck the water out of it is a risk that shouldn't be overlooked.

I don't think you have an understanding of the geology of the area around that pond. It is layered underneath with solid granite ledge rock.That pond was originally excavated down as deep as it could go without blasting the ledge rock. The only way to make that pond any deeper is to go into full on hard rock mining. That is very expensive and labor intensive.

So, it doesn't really matter how much water the permit allows you to store, if you can't physically make the pond any bigger.

Aso, the only source of water is the Mad River, which isn't some raging river in the winter. Come February, when everything locks up, you are going to have problems refilling that pond now matter how big it is. That is just how it it. A lot of the time there is barely enough water in the river to satisfy the minimum fish flow requirements at that time of year.



:argue:

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

Some of us go way back, getting the pond and withdrawl from the Mad River was very controversal and quite the accomplishment to get approved. Huge $$$ to excavate and export that material and its been done twice since then in '98 and Irene. Lincoln Peak had almost no snow making on it, Mt Ellen was the snowmaking mountain. Ripcord, DS, Snowball/Fling, Pushover/EZ Rider was about it. Does anyone remember what and where the water source was for South? It was Clay Brook at the 11th hole at the golf course. Yes, it could be better but I'm happy it is a lot better than it was.

That was the upgrade. It used to come from the little pond right at the base of the Mushroom. We were lucky to run 25 guns at a time. Plus we had to sit next to those damn Chicago Pneumatic compressors whilst on break.

 

[slatham]

First off, I believe we set a record Tuesday night, with having 200 guns running between both mountains, and Lincoln Peak water supply maxed out (at around 3500-3600 gpm), along with air. The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow. That's the nature of the beast. They run with considerable less air. In the old days, the initial lightup would have required all 3 compressors going, and we'd maybe get 20 guns online, only on upper Jester. Now we can get guns all the way from the summit to the base of Heaven's Gate. That's what we did Monday night. And had upper OG going. And all of that on a single compressor (a tremendous savings in electricity), which is a smaller size than the old 3 (we still have the older 2 6000s plus the 1 newer one - last year I believe we just ran one of the 6000s the entire season). Tuesday night, we killed most of OG to get Snowball and half of Fling online, plus guns in the base area, while continuing to run on Jester and DS. The next couple nights, we will be seeing close to mid winter temps and should be able to push out a lot of water on SB, Fling, and Downspout. I'm not sure if we will be running on Jester the next couple nights, since it makes sense to push the water onto lower mountain, then go back up top when temps moderate in the base later in the weekend. The towers on SB and Fling are designed to run at higher pressure and aren't as wet as the Snow logic land guns up on Jester (they also have more hang time, being up on towers).

IIRC, the limit right now on water is the size of the pipe and the distance it travels to get from the pond, up the Access Rd, into CB1. Last year, we had water issues and sucked the pond dry due to the dry fall. This year, it doesn't appear we'll have that issue (fingers crossed).

We are still hiring snowmakers, so if anyone is interested in how it gets done, put in an app and come join us. Then, when you get done with a gun run and are soaking wet and need an hour to dry off before going back up, you'll know how I feel when I see a comment that we're not checking them frequently enough. Plus, there's the "tenants for turns" program which if you rent a room in your home/condo to an employee, you can get a pass for dirt cheap or a SHaRC membership. Inquire at sugarbush.com.

Again, as I say year after year, it's not as easy as a lot of you think. We do our best with the amount of people we have and the resources provided. It's not as simple as just lighting up guns and moving on. There's 300+ pages in this thread to look back and see the debates from the past several years. I think we're ahead of the game this year and after this weekend, we should be looking real good.

Thanks Shady, both for your hard work making skiing happen, and giving this group of Monday morning quarterbacks the real scoop.

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

We are still hiring snowmakers, so if anyone is interested in how it gets done, put in an app and come join us. Then, when you get done with a gun run and are soaking wet and need an hour to dry off before going back up, you'll know how I feel when I see a comment that we're not checking them frequently enough.

Seriously? An hour to "dry off". Hmmmm what ever happened to the clothes dryers we put in the break room and heavens gate pump house?

We were always told to bring 2 sets of clothes to work. That way you always have a warm dry set to change into on every break.

Sounds to me like you guys are shorthanded as usual. It's hard to check and move all of the guns properly if you don't have enough guys on the shift in the first place. We used to run it so one team was always on the hill while the other was on break. Of course, then we had 60 guys on staff at that time.






:flame:

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

First off, I believe we set a record Tuesday night, with having 200 guns running between both mountains, and Lincoln Peak water supply maxed out (at around 3500-3600 gpm), along with air. The new guns we have been using for the past several years which replaced the traditional air/water ratnicks (the loud ones) make wetter snow. That's the nature of the beast. They run with considerable less air. In the old days, the initial lightup would have required all 3 compressors going, and we'd maybe get 20 guns online, only on upper Jester. Now we can get guns all the way from the summit to the base of Heaven's Gate. That's what we did Monday night. And had upper OG going. And all of that on a single compressor (a tremendous savings in electricity), which is a smaller size than the old 3 (we still have the older 2 6000s plus the 1 newer one - last year I believe we just ran one of the 6000s the entire season). Tuesday night, we killed most of OG to get Snowball and half of Fling online, plus guns in the base area, while continuing to run on Jester and DS. The next couple nights, we will be seeing close to mid winter temps and should be able to push out a lot of water on SB, Fling, and Downspout. I'm not sure if we will be running on Jester the next couple nights, since it makes sense to push the water onto lower mountain, then go back up top when temps moderate in the base later in the weekend. The towers on SB and Fling are designed to run at higher pressure and aren't as wet as the Snow logic land guns up on Jester (they also have more hang time, being up on towers).

IIRC, the limit right now on water is the size of the pipe and the distance it travels to get from the pond, up the Access Rd, into CB1. Last year, we had water issues and sucked the pond dry due to the dry fall. This year, it doesn't appear we'll have that issue (fingers crossed).

120 guns on south is not a record if I recall correctly. You are also making an apples to oranges comparison with the gun types.

It doesn't matter if you're running 10 guns or 100, if the flow is the same. You are still making the same amount of snow, it is just getting spread around more. So, when we used to max out at 25-45 guns, we were still flowing 4000 gpm of water. Thats why we were moving guns almost constantly. The new tower guns are much easier on the snowmaker in that respect.

The piping from the river to CB1 is capable of handling twice the flow that is does currently. Thats why there is room for another pump or 2 at the pond and room for 5 more pumps at CB1. The system was designed to be much larger then it ended up being. At the time, the idea was to send some of the water down German Flats road to hook into the system at north to help with the meager water supply on that side...... Never happened.



:argue:

 

[djd66]

120 guns on south is not a record if I recall correctly. You are also making an apples to oranges comparison with the gun types.

It doesn't matter if you're running 10 guns or 100, if the flow is the same. You are still making the same amount of snow, it is just getting spread around more. So, when we used to max out at 25-45 guns, we were still flowing 4000 gpm of water. Thats why we were moving guns almost constantly. The new tower guns are much easier on the snowmaker in that respect.

The piping from the river to CB1 is capable of handling twice the flow that is does currently. Thats why there is room for another pump or 2 at the pond and room for 5 more pumps at CB1. The system was designed to be much larger then it ended up being. At the time, the idea was to send some of the water down German Flats road to hook into the system at north to help with the meager water supply on that side...... Never happened.

:argue:

Bosco-

Based on your post, I am guessing you were a snow maker at Sugarbush? When did you last work there and for how many years?

 

[benski]

Shady I never thought the snowmakers at sugarbush were anything less than hard work. I was thinking more snowmakers to do Some extra rounds.

 

[Newpylong]

If you have low water pressure on HKD/stick guns, that can cause wet guns.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk

Not all stick guns, just Low E internal mixing guns. They are designed to use less compressed air but require higher pressure water. Anything less than 200 psi don't bother with the HKDs they'll make slush. Its also possible they are on too high of a setting (too high water to air ratio) for the curremt wet bulb. The older and mid e gums thrive in low water pressure that's why you see/saw them in use higher up the hill where the water pressure is lower. You make up for that with needing more air.