The "Sugarbush Thread"

[ingsy]

^^ agreed. Semi-Tough was awesome this weekend - no changes needed.

 

[thetrailboss]

FIS used to be groomed pretty regularly back when I first started skiing at SB. I'm perfectly ok with it not being groomed though. A groomed FIS only needs about a dozen or so turns to ski down and takes no time at all since the trail is rather short. Ungroomed is more challenging and more interesting.

To be clear, in my experience, they only groomed Upper FIS on rare events when things needed to be reset. I was not saying that it was a regularly groomed trail. Nor was I suggesting it should be.

As for Walt's and Semi-Tough, I think the current grooming strategy on them only when needed is perfect. Those trails are so much fun when left alone and only flattened once in a while to "reset" them or break up some firm conditions. There's no need to groom lower elevation natural trails like that too often. They can also act as a great introduction to natural terrain skiing for lower level skiers. Why ruin that by over-grooming them?

I think some clarification is needed here. I was responding to the comment Win made that these two trails have been put in the category of groomed "once or twice a season". Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that grooming these once a week or as needed is in any way "over-grooming." It seems like there is a lot of room between once to twice a season and once a week, but to each his own. My last season was 2011 and up until that point they regularly groomed Walt's...on the order of Friday, Saturday nights and then again as needed as you suggest. This was because it is, as you said, a nice transition trail from the former Sunny D area to the upper mountain. Personally, I liked it groomed when the base was sufficient.

And there are lots of areas that regularly groom natural trails when there is sufficient base. In the east it is a necessary thing with the freeze-thaw cycle.

I don't get why you think these things would be "disappointing". As a passholder I see very little to be disappointed about most of the time. I think the investments and improvements over the past several years have been very prudent and well spent. We're not wasting money on flashy unnecessary items like some other resorts do. While I certainly don't agree with every single decision made, I think the vast majority of time Win and his team make the right calls overall.

So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)? When they are offering less services? Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could? When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things? When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?

Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons. If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed. I think justifiably so. We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure. I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).

One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier. "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier. Why don't you have an MRG pass?" he asked. "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski. I want snowmaking and open terrain." My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open. A lot of us don't like that. The way things used to be done was why I skied there. But times change and I get that. I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.

 

[skiur]

In my book less grooming and leaving more trails natural snow is a good thing.

 

[Smellytele]

In my book less grooming and leaving more trails natural snow is a good thing.

If there is natural snow


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[thetrailboss]

If there is natural snow


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Bingo


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[cdskier]

I think some clarification is needed here. I was responding to the comment Win made that these two trails have been put in the category of groomed "once or twice a season". Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that grooming these once a week or as needed is in any way "over-grooming." It seems like there is a lot of room between once to twice a season and once a week, but to each his own. My last season was 2011 and up until that point they regularly groomed Walt's...on the order of Friday, Saturday nights and then again as needed as you suggest. This was because it is, as you said, a nice transition trail from the former Sunny D area to the upper mountain. Personally, I liked it groomed when the base was sufficient.

I'd say even once a week is too much for those trails. I'd also say from my memory that Walts is groomed more than once a twice a year typically (in fact it was just on the grooming report last night and I doubt that's the last time for the season). As long as we keep getting snow to refresh surfaces, Walt's typically stays in very good shape. Semi-Tough is probably in the category of being only groomed once or twice a year. That's absolutely sufficient most years for that trail. Inverness is not a high traffic area so those trails tend to hold up really well.

So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)? When they are offering less services? Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could? When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things? When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?

Well, I'm actually paying LESS now than I was just a few seasons ago. But even if I wasn't, I don't see not using snow-making on trails that often don't need it as offering less services. Bravo never "officially" had snow-making from what I remember. Years ago my understanding is they pulled hoses through the woods to make some snow on it a bunch of times. As for Exterminator, I said in one of my prior posts that I actually like it being left all natural and not having snow blown on it. So for me, this isn't a reduction of services either. It is actually "more services" for me as not covering it with man-made means there are more all-natural trails which are my preference. It happens that this "extra service" from my perspective also is lower cost.

I also disagree with your band-aid statement. You do admit that lift issues have gone down...but that is because they spent significant capital to address the issues that they had for those couple years. A significant outlay of capex is not a "band-aid" approach.

Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons. If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed. I think justifiably so. We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure. I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).

Keep in mind, Lincoln Peak is the primary early/late season base now. Even if they did have Exterminator on the snow-making list, it would in all likelihood be at the bottom of the priority list. GMVS needs a shit-ton of snow for their trails (Inverness and now Brambles gets a ton of snow-making too) and is always given priority. Then you have a ton of snow used for the terrain park which is a rather important priority to give the terrain park crowd somewhere to go. Then you have to cover your core T2B trails (Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way, Mainstream, Straight Shot, etc). We've had pretty good temps this year and for the most part they've been blowing whenever temps allowed. Even so, the last couple snow-making trails at ME were just done last week (FIS and Cliffs). So the way I see it, Exterminator would only just be getting snow-making somewhere around now. Keep in mind that ME only has 4K GPM capacity for snow-making if I remember correctly. Hypothetically speaking, if you were making snow on Exterminator and wanted it done earlier, what other trails would you sacrifice/delay in the schedule to make that happen?

One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier. "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier. Why don't you have an MRG pass?" he asked. "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski. I want snowmaking and open terrain." My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open. A lot of us don't like that. The way things used to be done was why I skied there. But times change and I get that. I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.

I don't particularly agree with your statement that they aren't aggressive in opening. Most years they are among the second group of ski areas in VT to open (with K being alone in the first group). Not like they are opening after everyone else. And they've been open until May for 10 of the last 12 years (which is more than most other VT resorts with the exception of K and perhaps Jay). As is they start making snow November 1. Making snow before that is quite risky in the east. Is that risk really worth it to maybe open the first or second weekend of November if you're lucky and the weather cooperates instead of the 3rd weekend as they currently do most years?

If they weren't opening until December or the very end of November then maybe I could see your argument. As is though, I just don't see it making good business sense to try to open earlier than they do. I'd rather see the resort make smart decisions that lead to long term sustainability rather than gamble and hope to get lucky and manage to open early November a handful of times.

In my book less grooming and leaving more trails natural snow is a good thing.

I fully agree. If someone wants excessive grooming, there are plenty of other mountains to visit. I like the fact that Sugarbush leaves so much ungroomed. And if there's no natural snow, that's when you ski the other 70% of terrain that does have snow-making.

 

[Newpylong]

Bravo has never had snowmaking outside of one hydrant on the headwall off a short lateral through the woods that can be jumped from the Elbow line. It is very rarely if ever used, its one of those things you need to stick a double rat on to do any good.

ASC made snow on Exterminator every year. If it was groomed we actually used to run GS on it but more often than not the bumps were marvelous.

Win can you explain the thought process behind not putting a base down in lean years on this anymore? I know there was a serious snowmaker injury on it a while back and that pretty much ended it - but there certainly are more dangerous trails to make snow on there.

 

[WinS]

To be clear, in my experience, they only groomed Upper FIS on rare events when things needed to be reset. I was not saying that it was a regularly groomed trail. Nor was I suggesting it should be.



I think some clarification is needed here. I was responding to the comment Win made that these two trails have been put in the category of groomed "once or twice a season". Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that grooming these once a week or as needed is in any way "over-grooming." It seems like there is a lot of room between once to twice a season and once a week, but to each his own. My last season was 2011 and up until that point they regularly groomed Walt's...on the order of Friday, Saturday nights and then again as needed as you suggest. This was because it is, as you said, a nice transition trail from the former Sunny D area to the upper mountain. Personally, I liked it groomed when the base was sufficient.

And there are lots of areas that regularly groom natural trails when there is sufficient base. In the east it is a necessary thing with the freeze-thaw cycle.



So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)? When they are offering less services? Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could? When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things? When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?

Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons. If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed. I think justifiably so. We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure. I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).

One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier. "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier. Why don't you have an MRG pass?" he asked. "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski. I want snowmaking and open terrain." My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open. A lot of us don't like that. The way things used to be done was why I skied there. But times change and I get that. I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.

I won’t even respond to what are a number of opinions from someone who has not been here since 2011. Everyone is free to have their own opinion.

But a couple of factual corrections. Yes, we do not make snow on Upper Exterminator any more. The only snow making on Bravo was when we dragged a gun through to cover the head fall. My clarification on Walt’s and Semi-Tough. We will groom when enough snow to improve them. I should not have included them in the ones I said were done a couple of times a year. They are important beginner/intermediate trails and we would like to groom as much as possible on at least one of them.

And, if you were still around, you would know that we are one of the first to open and last to close in the East and not embarrassed by having a 160 plus day season. Pass prices are also less than they were in 2011.

 

[WWF-VT]

So you are OK paying the same price, if not more, when they are removing snowmaking from trails (I now see that Exterminator, Bravo, and Lower Exerminator all no longer show snowmaking)? When they are offering less services? Not maintaining snow surfaces as well as they could? When they are putting bandaids on a lot of things? When lifts frequently break down (to their credit, this has gone WAY down)?

Understand that I primarily skied at Ellen my last four seasons. If I was being asked to pay the same for what looks like an even shorter season, with less snowmaking coverage (it DOES matter in early season and lean periods to have something on Exterminator IMHO), and less surface maintenance I'd be pretty disappointed. I think justifiably so. We've had many an argument about their reduced mountain ops and their philosophy with snowmaking and lift infrastructure. I get it that it is expensive, but I think these are legitimate concerns (not to go down the rabbit hole of debating mountain ops again).

One last anecdote: when I was in college back in 2002 the school MRG sales rep ribbed me for not being an MRG skier. "You're a Vermonter and a hard core skier. Why don't you have an MRG pass?" he asked. "Because when November comes around, and the weather sucks, I want to ski. I want snowmaking and open terrain." My sense in my last couple seasons, and has largely been confirmed by discussions on here since, is that Sugarbush has indeed cut back from what it used to do in terms of snowmaking and being aggressive to open. A lot of us don't like that. The way things used to be done was why I skied there. But times change and I get that. I still have a right to be disappointed with the change in direction.

FWIW - season pass prices have down over last couple of years and there are many more options available.

I spend a lot of time skiing at Mt Ellen and no one is complaining that there isn't snowmaking on Exterminator, Bravo and Lower Exterminator. I personally prefer the natural snow trails at Mt Ellen and there are plenty of groomer options. If you want steep, groomed styro snow then there are always Steins and Organ Grinder at Lincoln Peak. I'm fine with limited, if ever grooming of Walts and Semi-Tough. Snowmaking has increased dramatically on Which Way and Brambles now has snowmaking and grooming.

2002 is a long time ago.

 

[thetrailboss]

I won’t even respond to what are a number of opinions from someone who has not been here since 2011. Everyone is free to have their own opinion.

But a couple of factual corrections. Yes, we do not make snow on Upper Exterminator any more. The only snow making on Bravo was when we dragged a gun through to cover the head fall. My clarification on Walt’s and Semi-Tough. We will groom when enough snow to improve them. I should not have included them in the ones I said were done a couple of times a year. They are important beginner/intermediate trails and we would like to groom as much as possible on at least one of them.

And, if you were still around, you would know that we are one of the first to open and last to close in the East and not embarrassed by having a 160 plus day season. Pass prices are also less than they were in 2011.

With all due respect, Win (if this is really Win...I know that in the past there was a different handle and this poster has a different tone than the previous "Win"), you know that I have always been a big booster for the area and a big supporter. Having a difference in opinion about the value received in terms of what one gets for the cost of a pass...or a $129 holiday lift ticket...is a valid discussion. I know that the approach to mountain operations HAS changed. I know that in the past you've explained your POV as to why. That's fine. But dismissing criticisms that a lot of folks other than me raised is easy to do when you are coming off a big snowstorm. It's also easy to say you have a long season when mother nature HAS helped out with natural snow. Unfortunately I know all too well that there have been a lot of times when the luck has not gone that way.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'd say even once a week is too much for those trails. I'd also say from my memory that Walts is groomed more than once a twice a year typically (in fact it was just on the grooming report last night and I doubt that's the last time for the season). As long as we keep getting snow to refresh surfaces, Walt's typically stays in very good shape. Semi-Tough is probably in the category of being only groomed once or twice a year. That's absolutely sufficient most years for that trail. Inverness is not a high traffic area so those trails tend to hold up really well.

Again, it's easy to say that natural snow is awesome when you are having a good year......

Well, I'm actually paying LESS now than I was just a few seasons ago. But even if I wasn't, I don't see not using snow-making on trails that often don't need it as offering less services.

From that then I imagine that you are either in your 30's or at the other end of the scale. Regardless, it still begs the question of the value received for the price. You're happy. Great.

Bravo never "officially" had snow-making from what I remember. Years ago my understanding is they pulled hoses through the woods to make some snow on it a bunch of times.

Check the maps. It "did", but in the sense of a spur line to the head wall. Again, it cost nothing to leave it there. Why not maintain it and use it if needed? Why are some so avoidant of just admitting that there is cost-cutting going on?

As for Exterminator, I said in one of my prior posts that I actually like it being left all natural and not having snow blown on it. So for me, this isn't a reduction of services either. It is actually "more services" for me as not covering it with man-made means there are more all-natural trails which are my preference. It happens that this "extra service" from my perspective also is lower cost.

I will be sure to check in with you after the next thaw. I ask the question again, if the focus now is on less grooming and less snowmaking, why pay a premium when you can ski at MRG for less? Consider that. I like natural snow as much as the next guy, but I always paid and appreciated Sugarbush having ALL options available.

I also disagree with your band-aid statement. You do admit that lift issues have gone down...but that is because they spent significant capital to address the issues that they had for those couple years. A significant outlay of capex is not a "band-aid" approach.

Come on. :roll: How many posts can you find here complaining about Bravo, HG, NRX, and others frequently breaking down over the years? Nowhere did I say that the latest replacements were band-aids. They (finally) did replace Village and Sunny D...many years after most places would have.

Keep in mind, Lincoln Peak is the primary early/late season base now.

Yep. And there are folks like me who still don't think this was a good idea. But it is water under the bridge.

Even if they did have Exterminator on the snow-making list, it would in all likelihood be at the bottom of the priority list. GMVS needs a shit-ton of snow for their trails (Inverness and now Brambles gets a ton of snow-making too) and is always given priority. Then you have a ton of snow used for the terrain park which is a rather important priority to give the terrain park crowd somewhere to go. Then you have to cover your core T2B trails (Rim Run, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way, Mainstream, Straight Shot, etc). We've had pretty good temps this year and for the most part they've been blowing whenever temps allowed. Even so, the last couple snow-making trails at ME were just done last week (FIS and Cliffs). So the way I see it, Exterminator would only just be getting snow-making somewhere around now. Keep in mind that ME only has 4K GPM capacity for snow-making if I remember correctly. Hypothetically speaking, if you were making snow on Exterminator and wanted it done earlier, what other trails would you sacrifice/delay in the schedule to make that happen?

And here is the bigger point me and others have made for years now....is the snowmaking sufficient for the kind of resort Sugarbush says it is and wants to be? But it doesn't matter because you've got natural snow. Enjoy it while it lasts.

I don't particularly agree with your statement that they aren't aggressive in opening. Most years they are among the second group of ski areas in VT to open (with K being alone in the first group). Not like they are opening after everyone else.

Again, if there is natural snow.....

If they weren't opening until December or the very end of November then maybe I could see your argument.

Two of the last three seasons I was there this was the case. Just FYI.

I fully agree. If someone wants excessive grooming, there are plenty of other mountains to visit. I like the fact that Sugarbush leaves so much ungroomed. And if there's no natural snow, that's when you ski the other 70% of terrain that does have snow-making.

Oh God. That's not at all what I am saying. :roll:

 

[cdskier]

With all due respect, Win (if this is really Win...I know that in the past there was a different handle and this poster has a different tone than the previous "Win"), you know that I have always been a big booster for the area and a big supporter. Having a difference in opinion about the value received in terms of what one gets for the cost of a pass...or a $129 holiday lift ticket. I know that the approach to mountain operations HAS changed. I know that in the past you've explained your POV as to why. That's fine. But dismissing criticisms that a lot of folks other than me raised is easy to do when you are coming off a big snowstorm. It's also easy to say you have a long season when mother nature HAS helped out with natural snow. Unfortunately I know all too well that there have been a lot of times when the luck has not gone that way.

LOL. Now you're questioning whether Win is really Win! This is priceless.

At any rate, who are all these "folks other than you" that have raised the concerns that you're raising? I see numerous people here (myself included) that regularly ski Sugarbush and don't have issues with the things you're mentioning. You seem like one of those people that pick the one negative review out of 100 other good ones and uses that as your "proof" that other people think that place isn't good.

PS...mother nature's natural snow assistance has virtually nothing to do with skiing Steins or Spring Fling in May. That's all on the amount of snow they make on those trails. A recent example would be that in the 2015-2016 season our total for snowfall was 156" at the summit and a mere 69" at the base. Yet we still skied on May 1st.

 

[pinnoke]

+1 !!

FIS used to be groomed pretty regularly back when I first started skiing at SB. I'm perfectly ok with it not being groomed though. A groomed FIS only needs about a dozen or so turns to ski down and takes no time at all since the trail is rather short. Ungroomed is more challenging and more interesting.

As for Walt's and Semi-Tough, I think the current grooming strategy on them only when needed is perfect. Those trails are so much fun when left alone and only flattened once in a while to "reset" them or break up some firm conditions. There's no need to groom lower elevation natural trails like that too often. They can also act as a great introduction to natural terrain skiing for lower level skiers. Why ruin that by over-grooming them?

I don't get why you think these things would be "disappointing". As a passholder I see very little to be disappointed about most of the time. I think the investments and improvements over the past several years have been very prudent and well spent. We're not wasting money on flashy unnecessary items like some other resorts do. While I certainly don't agree with every single decision made, I think the vast majority of time Win and his team make the right calls overall.

 

[thetrailboss]

LOL. Now you're questioning whether Win is really Win! This is priceless.

As a Mod who dealt a lot with him, and have been here 15 years, yes I know the real McCoy. I also know that the handle is different than the original one used. We also gave Win special credentials (an "Industry Rep" label). That said, if they are one and the same, great. The Win I know was always quite diplomatic and understanding. And I am in no way bashing.

And you only have to go back in the 500 some pages of comments here over the years to see how my perspective takes into account a much longer period of time than the last two years. It is OK to have constructive feedback for the places you love.

 

[ss20]

thetrailboss has a lot of good points about reliability of the season in regards to snowmaking...that's why I have a pass for this little place an hour south down the street...but when the getting is good I am HAPPY to drive to Suagarbush because Killington has nothing on Castlerock and the Paradise ridgeline. Sugarbush is wrapping up snowmaking while Killington will still be going full-bore for another 6-8 weeks.

The bashing on Win is a bit ridiculous...

 

[thetrailboss]

The "Sugarbush Thread"

thetrailboss has a lot of good points about reliability of the season in regards to snowmaking...that's why I have a pass for this little place an hour south down the street...but when the getting is good I am HAPPY to drive to Suagarbush because Killington has nothing on Castlerock and the Paradise ridgeline. Sugarbush is wrapping up snowmaking while Killington will still be going full-bore for another 6-8 weeks.

The bashing on Win is a bit ridiculous...

To be clear, I'm not bashing.

 

[cdskier]

Again, it's easy to say that natural snow is awesome when you are having a good year......

I've been skiing here in both good and bad snow years. Even in bad snow years I've never once thought "gee, I wish they had snow-making on <insert natural trail name here>". No, instead I sucked it up and skied on the 70% of trails that do have snow-making on them when the natural trails were closed.

From that then I imagine that you are either in your 30's or at the other end of the scale. Regardless, it still begs the question of the value received for the price. You're happy. Great.

30s...but not relevant as even the standard adult pass is less now than it was several years ago.

I will be sure to check in with you after the next thaw. I ask the question again, if the focus now is on less grooming and less snowmaking, why pay a premium when you can ski at MRG for less? Consider that. I like natural snow as much as the next guy, but I always paid and appreciated Sugarbush having ALL options available.

Less? MRG isn't cheap. My pass for SB was a good $200 or so cheaper than MRG's pass. And even a full-priced adult SB pass at the early rates was only $50 more than MRG. You're not even close to comparing apples to apples either. So if I was paying the adult rates, for $50 more at SB I get a longer season with a pretty good comfort level that at least 50-70% of the terrain would be open even in a year with virtually no natural snow. Meanwhile in that same scenario at MRG you'd be skiing their practice slope and that's about it. You might want to rethink your logic a bit. Even with no natural trails open SB still has a lot of terrain available.

Two of the last three seasons I was there this was the case. Just FYI.

Well if you left around 2011, that means 2009-2010 was one of the seasons you're referring to. That's a terrific reference point. That year SB opened December 6, Stowe opened December 6, Jay opened December 5, and Okemo opened December 5. Clearly there were some weather related challenges that year...but yea, blame Sugarbush for opening late.

 

[cdskier]

As a Mod who dealt a lot with him, and have been here 15 years, yes I know the real McCoy. I also know that the handle is different than the original one used. We also gave Win special credentials (an "Industry Rep" label). That said, if they are one and the same, great. The Win I know was always quite diplomatic and understanding. And I am in no way bashing.

And you only have to go back in the 500 some pages of comments here over the years to see how my perspective takes into account a much longer period of time than the last two years. It is OK to have constructive feedback for the places you love.

Win has several times here and on the MRV forums when we used them created new accounts at the start of the season and outright posted saying he forgot his username/password.

If you think his tone has changed, I'd suggest it is probably because he's tired of hearing complaints or even outright inaccurate information from someone that moved away 8 years ago and doesn't seem to have much first-hand knowledge of the current situation, yet continues to bring up things from the past even if they've already been addressed.

Constructive feedback is fine as long as it is relevant to the present day and not based on something that happened 10-15 years ago.

 

[thetrailboss]

I've been skiing here in both good and bad snow years. Even in bad snow years I've never once thought "gee, I wish they had snow-making on <insert natural trail name here>". No, instead I sucked it up and skied on the 70% of trails that do have snow-making on them when the natural trails were closed.

Right. But the whole point we've been discussing is that there are now at least two trails that no longer have snowmaking. It doesn't matter when snow is good. But there are a lot of times when having a base is critical...as you illustrated with your point about MRG and being limited to the Practice Slope. My question is why take it out in the first place? Why not maintain it and keep it and use it when needed?

So if I was paying the adult rates, for $50 more at SB I get a longer season with a pretty good comfort level that at least 50-70% of the terrain would be open even in a year with virtually no natural snow.

This is the whole debate....the amount of coverage, the speed of recovering, the ability to get terrain covered, etc. Again, so far so good this year for you.

Well if you left around 2011, that means 2009-2010 was one of the seasons you're referring to. That's a terrific reference point. That year SB opened December 6, Stowe opened December 6, Jay opened December 5, and Okemo opened December 5. Clearly there were some weather related challenges that year...but yea, blame Sugarbush for opening late.

Yep. If you go back in this long thread you will see comments about that season. Sunday River and Killington opened in October. The issue we had that year was that cold snaps were very short and it showed the shortcomings of SB and its ability to mobilize and cover terrain. A lot of us wanted to see more capacity, but they have gone in a different direction. It is what it is.

 

[thetrailboss]

Constructive feedback is fine as long as it is relevant to the present day and not based on something that happened 10-15 years ago.

So, again, the whole big kurfuffle has been the question of why snowmaking was removed from two trails and a discussion about grooming of a couple of natural trails. I came out and just said it was probably cost-related now probably 15 posts ago. That's not a bad thing. It is what it is. I just don't understand why there's so much heat whenever the issue of snowmaking at Sugarbush is brought up.