The "Sugarbush Thread"

[nhskier1969]

I can understand the philosophy and why it is done but I do not agree that the experience I better for everybody. Once it is groomed every Intermediate skier on the hill goes there and the line get even bigger than usual. Also I think that the originally formed bumps have a better shape and spacing. Once they put a groomer on it, they form more spaced out and have no even pattern. This has been documented. Just go and ski Mad River so see the difference. Not earth shattering but this is my opinion.

I disagree. I think the ice bumps on the top half of Castlerock run aren't formed correctly at all.

 

[Newpylong]

I don' know. I am not a fan of grooming. I ski castlerock every weekend and there are only a handful of days that it is bad enough that I will not ski it. There are plenty of groomers on the hill. Remember what the sign says, "for experts only". You shouldn't have to dumb down castlerock so that the unskilled can ski it. it's just how I fell. Myself and most of the people that I ski with feel the same way. But im not going to loose sleep over it because it is not my call. Ill just ski rumble, lift line and the woods and leave the groomers to those others.

If the aforementioned runs are buffed prior to a storm then they are not going to be groomers for more than an hour. It is absolutely the right call sometimes if the bumps are cement and a good dump is in the forecast. The end results are better bumps and less dentures.

 

[nhskier1969]

I want to thank everyone who decided not to ski at SB today. The conditions(ski surface) was excellent. There was a light snow/sleet/frz rain snizzle in the morning but turned back to a little snow/sleet mix in the early afternoon. The conditions in the morning were surfy, then to a nice loose powder in the afternoon. half the chairs on bravo were going up empty. I skied Friday, Saturday and Sunday and the pick of the three was Sunday.

 

[Hawk]

We had a great weekend of skiing and the skiing was excellent all over with no lines to speak of. I did go over to North for half the day Saturday and skied a bunch of runs. If you skied on any North facing slopes It was a lot better than anything that faced the sun and got affected. Skied a lot of woods and most people kept out. That helped.
I still disagree on the whole Castlerock grooming debate. Bumps DO NOT form better once groomed. Fact not fiction and this coming from an ex-freestyle guy with years of experience. Your not gong to convince me otherwise. But in the end it is Win's mountain after all and he will do what he sees best for the majority of skiers. I am just not the majority I guess. All good.

 

[mikec142]

We had a great weekend of skiing and the skiing was excellent all over with no lines to speak of. I did go over to North for half the day Saturday and skied a bunch of runs. If you skied on any North facing slopes It was a lot better than anything that faced the sun and got affected. Skied a lot of woods and most people kept out. That helped.
I still disagree on the whole Castlerock grooming debate. Bumps DO NOT form better once groomed. Fact not fiction and this coming from an ex-freestyle guy with years of experience. Your not gong to convince me otherwise. But in the end it is Win's mountain after all and he will do what he sees best for the majority of skiers. I am just not the majority I guess. All good.

Hey Hawk,

Glad you had a great weekend up at SB. I'm heading up this weekend.

Don't want to debate the grooming vs. not grooming thing. But am curious about your thoughts on how bumps form. Is there a natural way for bumps to form "better"? I would think that bumps just form eventually on any slope if you don't groom.

 

[drjeff]

Hey Hawk,

Glad you had a great weekend up at SB. I'm heading up this weekend.

Don't want to debate the grooming vs. not grooming thing. But am curious about your thoughts on how bumps form. Is there a natural way for bumps to form "better"? I would think that bumps just form eventually on any slope if you don't groom.

Often the "quality" of bump formation has way more to do with the "quality" of skiers/riders on the trail than anything else.

Snow surface and weather play some part in it, but IMHO not nearly as much as the folks who are making turns in the same basic location as the bumps are forming....

 

[mikec142]

Often the "quality" of bump formation has way more to do with the "quality" of skiers/riders on the trail than anything else.

Snow surface and weather play some part in it, but IMHO not nearly as much as the folks who are making turns in the same basic location as the bumps are forming....

Hey Dr Jeff,

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about about the folks that are making turns. I would assume that where people make turns has a major part in it. I was curious if someone was going to say that the "qaulity" of the skier has something to do with it. The reason I say that is that using myself as an example, I might take two runs down Ripcord...first run making tight slalom like turns and the second run making longer GS type turns. Same quality skier, just different turning points and thus pushing the snow in different spots.

My gut feeling is that if/when Castlerock Run gets groomed, bumps will eventually form after enough skier turns, snow, weather, etc. But I don't think that the quality or the spacing of the bumps will be any better or worse than they were before the grooming.

 

[Hawk]

Yes drjeff is right. The type of skiers that cut the initial turns make the start and other follow and build the bumps. The initial bumps on Castlerock are formed in all natural uncompacted snow. They are formed from usually expert skiers that hiked over. They make tighter turns and the bumps form tighter. Once you groom them down and the lift is running, all kinds of different types of skiers are introduced the pattern changes to wider turns so bigger bumps. Also the groomed noe compacted snow does not cu the same and that little bit of new snow on top is not enough to make new ones the same way. I will say once again. Go to Mad River and see the difference on Catamount bowl, Chute or Fall Line. There is a difference. You will never convince me otherwise.

 

[mikec142]

Yes drjeff is right. The type of skiers that cut the initial turns make the start and other follow and build the bumps. The initial bumps on Castlerock are formed in all natural uncompacted snow. They are formed from usually expert skiers that hiked over. They make tighter turns and the bumps form tighter. Once you groom them down and the lift is running, all kinds of different types of skiers are introduced the pattern changes to wider turns so bigger bumps. Also the groomed noe compacted snow does not cu the same and that little bit of new snow on top is not enough to make new ones the same way. I will say once again. Go to Mad River and see the difference on Catamount bowl, Chute or Fall Line. There is a difference. You will never convince me otherwise.

Hawk,

Now this makes sense to me...appreciate the response.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The most interesting thing about mogul formation is that they dont stay in place, but they actually migrate uphill.

 

[Domeskier]

Bumps are not static things. Rain, new snow, freeze-thaw cycles, traffic from skiers and boarders of all ability levels with a myriad of bump skiing styles mean lines more or less in constant flux. This is true even of seeded bump lines skied-in by competition level bump skiers. The idea that bump lines set down in November by expert skiers (particularly those hiking for fresh turns on boards that are probably 95mm+ underfoot) are necessarily going to be better than the lines that will form in mid February after a foot or more of heavily trafficked powder over a groomed base is really out there. I hate it when resorts mow down decent bump lines just because they're too big, or too hard or too icy for the groomer set, but to lay it down as a rule that bumps are better if they are formed earlier in the season before the trail was ever groomed is a lot to swallow.

 

[Domeskier]

The most interesting thing about mogul formation is that they dont stay in place, but they actually migrate uphill.

+1 (and change as they do).

 

[djd66]

I think a big reason why you see such a difference in the bumps at MRG vs SB has a lot to do with snowboarders and lack of them at MRG. I have not been to SB in a few weeks, so I don’t know exactly how rough the bumps are on CR. I know in the past when they have mowed down the ice bumps (not just on CR) it has improved the skiing and the bumps are better after being groomed. I have also seen them groom Lixi and MOonshine and there was not enough new snow - the net effect was there were crappy bumps and a really boring trail. Bottom line - if they have enough snow in the forecast, I think mowing ice bumps will be an improvement.

 

[WWF-VT]

I think a big reason why you see such a difference in the bumps at MRG vs SB has a lot to do with snowboarders and lack of them at MRG. I have not been to SB in a few weeks, so I don’t know exactly how rough the bumps are on CR. I know in the past when they have mowed down the ice bumps (not just on CR) it has improved the skiing and the bumps are better after being groomed. I have also seen them groom Lixi and MOonshine and there was not enough new snow - the net effect was there were crappy bumps and a really boring trail. Bottom line - if they have enough snow in the forecast, I think mowing ice bumps will be an improvement.

Surprised that it took this long to blame snowboarders....and not everyone at MRG is an amazing expert skier

 

[Domeskier]

Surprised that it took this long to blame snowboarders.

Heh. Boarders do have a much more pronounced asymmetry in their left- and right-hand turns, which can have a noticeable affect on bump formation. Those with a natural stance (the majority) tend to make more rounded, sweeping turns when facing downhill and turning to the left and much more quick, clipped turns when turning to the right. This can result in bumps with troughs that are alternately broad and rounded toward the left and steep and narrow toward the right. Seems to be more of an issue in steeper bumps where there is a greater tendency to want to check your speed.

 

[flakeydog]

Sorry but I just have to call BS on thi one. Now that snowboarding has been a “thing” for a generation now, I see a bad skier does as much ‘damage’ to a ski hill than a snowboard. I know we will probably debate this for another generation to come but come on...

Anyway I think subtle (and not so subtle) double fall lines can cause the aforementioned phenomenon. Many of the trails at North seem to favor a skiers left side approach for bumps. Cliffs, Bravo (esp lower), Black Diamond, Encore, most of Tumbler, etc.

Also, a big factor is snowmaking vs not. The primary factor between MRG and Sugarbush (more so than skiers vs snowboarders). Firm base allows for bumps spread out. Compounded by the fact that snowmaking trails attract a more ‘diverse’ selection of skiers due to the perception of better conditions on snowmaking trails, ie better coverage. Bumps almost. always better on Bravo vs Cliffs because of this. Better skiers factor in as well. Why might there be better bumps on Middle Earth vs CR Run? 70% of the skier traffic heads to CR (over more of the ability spectrum) and the ones in the know head to Middle Earth.

 

[Griswold]

I’ve never been a huge fan of the bumps on CR. Love skiing CR but think there are usually better lines elsewhere on the Lincoln peak side. The Mall, Domino, upper birdland (early and late season), Morningstar, spillsville are all places I’d rather go when lookin for zipper lines with mogul skis on.


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[Domeskier]

Sorry but I just have to call BS on thi one. Now that snowboarding has been a “thing” for a generation now, I see a bad skier does as much ‘damage’ to a ski hill than a snowboard. I know we will probably debate this for another generation to come but come on....

Do you board? There's a big difference between using your toe edge and using your heel edge. Not a knock against boarders. The mechanics of skiing and boarding are just completely different.

 

[flakeydog]

Do you board? There's a big difference between using your toe edge and using your heel edge. Not a knock against boarders. The mechanics of skiing and boarding are just completely different.

I do snowboard. My preference is definitely skiing but I have ridden all types of boards over the last 25-30 years. I still (respectfully) disagree. You can have a lot of in in a nice line of bumps on the right board or tele skis for that matter. In fact, many of my observations hold true in the period before snowboarding was a significant part of the snow sport population. It has more to do with understanding how to navigate bump lines, not the equipment you happen to be using.

 

[STREETSKIER]

Do you board? There's a big difference between using your toe edge and using your heel edge. Not a knock against boarders. The mechanics of skiing and boarding are just completely different.

most boarders don’t like bumps anyway so this is a crock a board or ski basically the same oh yea the powder is better than it’s been in a while and the mountain is empty

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