The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Hawk]

Hawk, it's been a pleasure skiing with you over the last several years. Looking forward to this winter and sharing some quality time in the woods again.

Oh man. Now this is going to twist my brain. I don't think I have made this connection yet.

 

[Hawk]

Thanks for the PM Orca. I don't know if you guys ever told me your handles. I had a feeling it was you though.

Now this guy is one that I see all the time in the woods. He knows his sugarbush stuff for sure.
And yes we will do more runs this year.

 

[cdskier]

I hear what all of you are saying. Yup to each his own and it always is that way. For those of you that say I don't like skiing with people because they slow you down or don't like the terrain you like. I say, get better friends. ;-) The golden rule is no more than 4 But 3 is best in case you have an issue and need help. Skiing alone in the woods is foolish in my opinion and I never do that. But I can respect that some people totally get off on the solitude. It's who they are and if they are willing to look past the risk, then I guess that is their thing and I can't argue with that.

I can see both sides. My biggest problem in skiing with others is finding someone around the same level as me. I'm nowhere near as good as some here in the woods and I always feel guilty about holding other people back. I also enjoy stopping a decent amount to take photos which would probably drive some people nuts. Sometimes I'm with someone at the right level and it works out well so I can push myself a bit more to go places I wouldn't go alone. On trail I don't mind being by myself at all. I find it peaceful and love being able to make every decision on where to go myself. In the woods I prefer not to be by myself, but I've done it before mainly in more well known areas.

On another note, anyone read Win's blog recently? Interesting comment about trying a different snowmaking plan at LP this year:

Over at Lincoln Peak we are planning to do something different this year. If temperatures permit, we will focus on the Gate House terrain first in order to have both beginner and intermediate terrain open as early as possible and then put extra capacity to work on Snowball and Spring Fling. If the temperatures do not permit, we will work from the summit down.

We'll have to see how that works out and what the exact plan ends up being, but my initial reaction isn't overly excited about that. We'll see.

 

[1dog]

They have the more advanced customers come early and GH doesn't satisfy that customer - maybe they are expecting to get both open within a couple cays of each other.

I'm sure the faithful customer has family who want less challenging terrain but the weather will probably dictate top down from summit anyway.


After all, how many intermediate/beginners are out in November as a % of all the customers who come Nov 15- Dec 15?

Cold weather and a couple feet of snow make this subject evaporate.

But if there is an early thaw and Spring/Snowball doesn't hold up . . . . . .

 

[ss20]

They have the more advanced customers come early and GH doesn't satisfy that customer - maybe they are expecting to get both open within a couple cays of each other.

After all, how many intermediate/beginners are out in November as a % of all the customers who come Nov 15- Dec 15?

This argument comes up time and time again in the early season discussion and I've never understood it. Rime/Reason at Killington is (in my opinion) borderline low-intermediate terrain for Killington (compared to Bittersweet, Bearclaw, Vagabond to name a few). Bretton opens with that flat wide beginner trail under the lift. Wildcat on the beginner Polecat. SR has T2 which is moderately steep, to be fair.

All this to say I think people are just happy to be sliding in October/November, terrain be damned. I'd take three flat trails over one steep trail on opening day. Unless we get crazy natural snow, the first "steep" trail to open in the East is typically Cascade at Killington (off the top of my head).

 

[mister moose]

the first "steep" trail to open in the East is typically Cascade at Killington (off the top of my head).

Sorta. The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade). The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam. The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.

 

[Orca]

Thanks for the PM Orca. I don't know if you guys ever told me your handles. I had a feeling it was you though.

Now this guy is one that I see all the time in the woods. He knows his sugarbush stuff for sure.
And yes we will do more runs this year.

Absolutely, my friend. Looking forward to compounding snowfalls that open the woods for us. May it be sooner than later.

 

[ss20]

Sorta. The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade). The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam. The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.

Ah yes...it always slips my mind that Downdraft is fun for a couple weeks in November/December before it turns into the World's Steepest Ice Rink after the first rain/freeze cycle and the Killington snowmaking team abandons it.

 

[Hawk]

Sorta. The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade). The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam. The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.

I don't know about that. At Sugarbush typically there is only cold enough temps upper mountain and they tend to start with the Heavens Gate chair. That usually means Upper Organ Grinder and Upper Jester down to Downspout and down loading until they can get lower terrain open. Upper OG is as steep and longer than either of those runs.

 

[skiur]

Sorta. The first steep section is Downdraft headwall(co-located for 100 feet with the start of Cascade). The next segment on Downdraft is where they always hold the Turkey Rail Jam. The first really full steep trail to open is usually lower East Fall.

Mousetrap normally opens before LEF, not as long but I would say just as steep......but then again its not a black anymore so maybe its less steep than it used to be

 

[Newpylong]

I don't know about that. At Sugarbush typically there is only cold enough temps upper mountain and they tend to start with the Heavens Gate chair. That usually means Upper Organ Grinder and Upper Jester down to Downspout and down loading until they can get lower terrain open. Upper OG is as steep and longer than either of those runs.

The Downdraft "Headwall" is without question steeper than any section of Organgrinder. It is more in line with the pitch of Upper FIS, etc.

East Fall is similar in pitch to OG, but obviously nowhere near the length.

 

[WWF-VT]

The Downdraft "Headwall" is without question steeper than any section of Organgrinder. It is more in line with the pitch of Upper FIS, etc.

I laugh every time I see anyone reference a trail with a "headwall" at Killington

 

[Hawk]

The Downdraft "Headwall" is without question steeper than any section of Organgrinder. It is more in line with the pitch of Upper FIS, etc.

East Fall is similar in pitch to OG, but obviously nowhere near the length.

But we are talking early season. Sugarbush always has OG open first as this is the higher altitude terrain. I ski Killington basically every year early season. They never have Downdraft or East Fall open before OG so I would not conside them opening trails. This was about opening day steep trails right?

 

[deadheadskier]

This argument comes up time and time again in the early season discussion and I've never understood it. Rime/Reason at Killington is (in my opinion) borderline low-intermediate terrain for Killington (compared to Bittersweet, Bearclaw, Vagabond to name a few). Bretton opens with that flat wide beginner trail under the lift. Wildcat on the beginner Polecat. SR has T2 which is moderately steep, to be fair.

All this to say I think people are just happy to be sliding in October/November, terrain be damned. I'd take three flat trails over one steep trail on opening day. Unless we get crazy natural snow, the first "steep" trail to open in the East is typically Cascade at Killington (off the top of my head).

Wildcat opens with Lynx, not Polecat. I'm biased, but IMO it's the best opening trail at any Eastern ski area. 2100 vert of consistent blue to black pitch with no run out.

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[cdskier]

Now that some others have weighed in, here's the way I see it. Your core early season demographic is your "die hard" type skier. Sure you don't need a trail like Stein's open first, but you should definitely have intermediate to advanced terrain available (I think the current mix of OG, Jester, Spring Fling as some of the key early trails is pretty damn good). Even simply encouraging beginner/intermediate skiers to come out earlier is risky imo because they could be disappointed with the experience (too crowded trails, too many more advanced skiers sharing the trails with them if options are limited, early season conditions, etc).

Now of course as this is a thought on a new strategy, we don't know exactly how it will play out yet. In an ideal world you have about 3 weeks of time to make snow before opening day. If weather cooperated, you could get the Spring Fling/Snowball combo AND at least 1 way down GH open which would be fine to spread the different levels of skiers out. That's a big if though. Historically speaking we haven't been quite that lucky with enough good temps down low where that would work though from what I recall.

So let's play out another scenario. You only have good temps up top and make snow on the Jester/DS/OG routes. Now you get good temps down low after you made enough up top. Does it still make sense to now focus on GH first instead of creating a T2B route from the upper mountain terrain? If you do that, you have uploading/downloading on SB so people can get to HG to ski that terrain plus you're running the GH lift for that terrain. I'm obviously a bit biased, but I think at least 1 T2B route off SB/HG should be the primary focus. If you then want to switch to GH next instead of expanding further off the SB pod, that's acceptable I think. Just my 2 cents and curious to see how this ends up working out and what the exact plan ends up being.

 

[Newpylong]

But we are talking early season. Sugarbush always has OG open first as this is the higher altitude terrain. I ski Killington basically every year early season. They never have Downdraft or East Fall open before OG so I would not conside them opening trails. This was about opening day steep trails right?

As soon as Great Northern is open to get you from K1 down to North Ridge, Downdraft is usually open as well. In 9/10 years, this is before Sugarbush is open.

Yes, East Fall comes much later on for K. Not early season by any means.

 

[slatham]

First of all, my read of the statement is that if the first cold snap is significant enough to make "enough" snow on Gate House, then that would be the FIRST place lit up. So this scenario is a deep, multi-day event where they believe they can lay enough snow to open GH. Then they move on.

But the question is what next? IMHO, IF the next cold snap was deep/long enough, I presume they would go Snowball/Spring Fling, and then Valley House Traverse. Connect the two pods at the base. Then go to summit.

So a complete reversal of past years.

But the real question, the one that is likely to be faced, is what cdskier raised above.

"You only have good temps up top and make snow on the Jester/DS/OG routes. Now you get good temps down low after you made enough up top. Does it still make sense to now focus on GH first instead of creating a T2B route from the upper mountain terrain? If you do that, you have uploading/downloading on SB so people can get to HG to ski that terrain plus you're running the GH lift for that terrain."

This is the rub. Two major cold waves (or one long enough for GH+SF/SB/VHT) with no intermediate opportunities to make snow at the summit is a unicorn.

The reality is you will have opportunities where the only place to make snow is the summit. And then you come across this dilemma - go TTB, or go to GH and have 2 pods with downloading on Bravo.

Not an easy decision, and obviously very situational based on forecast, how deep into the fall we are, etc. Should be interesting to see how it plays out. And we won't be waiting long - pattern is changing and temps arrive this weekend, at least at the summit

 

[Hawk]

As soon as Great Northern is open to get you from K1 down to North Ridge, Downdraft is usually open as well. In 9/10 years, this is before Sugarbush is open.

Yes, East Fall comes much later on for K. Not early season by any means.

You are saying that Downdraft has been open from Great Northern to the bottom of the canyon quad before Sugarbush opens the last 9 of 10 years? Maybe a couple of times. Not last year or the year before. I skied sugarbush last year on Saturday and K on Sunday and downdraft was not open.

 

[Smellytele]

You are saying that Downdraft has been open from Great Northern to the bottom of the canyon quad before Sugarbush opens the last 9 of 10 years? Maybe a couple of times. Not last year or the year before. I skied sugarbush last year on Saturday and K on Sunday and downdraft was not open.

I think downdraft headwall at the top down to Gr No is what they are talking about. Not down from GN to the canyon quad


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[Newpylong]

Yes, just the "Headwall'. Quoted several times now for emphasis.

It is their very early season expert run, more a way to use excess water and get another route down to North Ridge early on.

Organgrinder IMHO is a better run, was just trying to say that that section of DD is pretty damn steep and is in play early.