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The "Sugarbush Thread"

slatham

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So, has it been determined this is an accurate read of the rule? I can certainly see how it could be read that way.

Would you rat out your neighbor if you know they are coming and going against the rules? It is fairly silly because you could live in a green community and go to red community to work every day - so the rule is not accomplishing much.

Not exactly sure the question but you can complete a 14 day quarantine (or 7 days and then negative PCR test) in your home state (regardless of color) as long as you drive a personal vehicle to VT without stops etc.

You can also drive to VT with no stops (in VT) and then quarantine (14 or 7 + test) at your own VT residence. Of course this means bringing 14 days of food etc.

Net-net, unless you (and family if applicable) are all working from home, with no outside contact, then obeying these rules for a ski trip is impossible.
 

Blurski

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Sep 17, 2020
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Agree, no need to rat anyone out, it is going to be pretty easy to tell what is going on, when the condo lots and hotel lots are empty from M- TH and full F-S of out of state plates.
People are going to have to practice what they will say and be consistent & unified throughout all family members, what a mess. Hoping it does not cause a shut down and cost us a ski season.
Maybe the Governor is waiting to get elected first before he makes a big change to the travel guidelines, if he did it before the election it could go badly for him. Does not seem like either candidate is addressing the issue specifically to winter tourism and the impact it will have on the safety of VT residents or VT economy, I think they both know it is a lightning rod and would be a lose/lose for them.
 

ducky

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Nov 18, 2017
Messages
140
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16
Location
Waitsfield, VT
Agree, no need to rat anyone out, it is going to be pretty easy to tell what is going on, when the condo lots and hotel lots are empty from M- TH and full F-S of out of state plates.
People are going to have to practice what they will say and be consistent & unified throughout all family members, what a mess. Hoping it does not cause a shut down and cost us a ski season.
Maybe the Governor is waiting to get elected first before he makes a big change to the travel guidelines, if he did it before the election it could go badly for him. Does not seem like either candidate is addressing the issue specifically to winter tourism and the impact it will have on the safety of VT residents or VT economy, I think they both know it is a lightning rod and would be a lose/lose for them.

Just wondering if you listen to Gov Scott's biweekly radio addresses? He is pretty clear about quarantining, the economy, and the ski season. Sure, there are unanswered questions about the future and what it holds for the ski industry this winter and if other states will go back to green, but he is not willing to simply open up VT for business at the expense of the health of Vermonters. To that he is very clear. His method has been to "open the spigot" slowly and see if flare ups happen, then back off as necessary. Currently, the red areas are creeping back right up to our borders. Fwiw, Zuckerman has way outraised/outspent Scott campaigning and he has little chance of winning due to Scott's popularity based on his handling of the pandemic. Today Gov Scott said it will be a tough year for ski resorts and at best they will see little business.

I am considering an uncle's 80th birthday party in CT (all red) next week and would be outside under a tent, only eight ppl, distanced and with masks on. I feel I would have to quarantine on my return to be safe to my family and local community; 14 days or 7 days and a test. By quarantine, I mean no shopping, no post office, no gas station. Staying home or in the woods. As my wife is recovering from a knee replacement, I may not go as I'm her carer.
 

Harvey

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May 19, 2007
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North River, NY
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he is not willing to simply open up VT for business at the expense of the health of Vermonters. To that he is very clear. His method has been to "open the spigot" slowly and see if flare ups happen, then back off as necessary

He has a huge structural advantage, leading Vermont.

Power to him.
 

tumbler

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Jan 10, 2014
Messages
860
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18
Has there been a big spike in cases from the huge influx of people on Columbus Day weekend? Not that I have heard about. The state was packed and news reports about fully occupied hotels. One outbreak was from apple orchard workers and the current one is from a rink in Barre that I doubt is related to out of state visitors. Everyone that is going there for the weekend doesn't want to get sick either and are practicing social distancing and mask wearing at home and there. I bet a huge majority are doing nothing more than going to the market with a mask and seeing their close group of friends that are in their bubble. It's not like it is life as usual for everyone outside Vermont.
 

Slidebrook87

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Nov 24, 2019
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456
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Location
MRV
Has there been a big spike in cases from the huge influx of people on Columbus Day weekend? Not that I have heard about. The state was packed and news reports about fully occupied hotels. One outbreak was from apple orchard workers and the current one is from a rink in Barre that I doubt is related to out of state visitors. Everyone that is going there for the weekend doesn't want to get sick either and are practicing social distancing and mask wearing at home and there. I bet a huge majority are doing nothing more than going to the market with a mask and seeing their close group of friends that are in their bubble. It's not like it is life as usual for everyone outside Vermont.

This ^


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djd66

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Sep 6, 2015
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The only way VT could expect only people from out of state to not travel to VT for skiing is to shut down all the VT ski areas. Sorry, but the thought of that is ridiculous. I think most people practice social distancing and wear masks all the time (at least where I live) Personally I plan on coming to VT this winter. I will bring all of my own supplies and only be outside with people outside of my cohort.
 

Slidebrook87

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Nov 24, 2019
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MRV
Safety measures (distancing, masks, etc) should take priority over travel restrictions as both masks and distancing have proven to be extremely effective at reducing the risk of transmission. IMO enforcement of these policies should be quite strict whereas the travel ban, not so much.


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nhskier1969

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Feb 1, 2016
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The only way VT could expect only people from out of state to not travel to VT for skiing is to shut down all the VT ski areas. Sorry, but the thought of that is ridiculous. I think most people practice social distancing and wear masks all the time (at least where I live) Personally I plan on coming to VT this winter. I will bring all of my own supplies and only be outside with people outside of my cohort.

If one person comes from out of state, they may give him a hard time. If 1000's come from out of state, they won't be able to do anything about it.

If they shut down the ski areas, it would be like when Hawaii had the lockdowns for Tourist, it almost destroyed Hawaii's economy.

They won't shut down Ski areas, The resorts bring alot of dollars and jobs towards their local communities. It would cost the state more to shutdown the ski areas than to keep them open.
 

slatham

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I am considering an uncle's 80th birthday party in CT (all red) next week and would be outside under a tent, only eight ppl, distanced and with masks on. I feel I would have to quarantine on my return to be safe to my family and local community; 14 days or 7 days and a test. By quarantine, I mean no shopping, no post office, no gas station. Staying home or in the woods. As my wife is recovering from a knee replacement, I may not go as I'm her carer.

This is where VT's travel rules fail. According to the CDC people at such an event are not "exposed" to Covid. 6' distance, masks, outside, limited size. This is how its supposed to be done! Yet VT thinks you should quarantine for 14 days after such an event because of the county it happened in? It misses the point, hurts the economy, and hurts the businesses and people of VT.

And as noted elsewhere, the influx of out-of-staters for July 4th, Labor Day and Columbus Day weekend/foliage season did NOT cause a spike.

Because it's not where you're from, its how you act! Have you followed protocol and avoided exposure or not? And when you get to VT, do you follow the protocol.
 

Hawk

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Mad River Valley / MA
The only way VT could expect only people from out of state to not travel to VT for skiing is to shut down all the VT ski areas. Sorry, but the thought of that is ridiculous. I think most people practice social distancing and wear masks all the time (at least where I live) Personally I plan on coming to VT this winter. I will bring all of my own supplies and only be outside with people outside of my cohort.

You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people. This adds another good layer to the equation. People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick. My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer. But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up. If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.
 

skiur

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You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people. This adds another good layer to the equation. People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick. My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer. But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up. If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.

The town of warren may disagree with you on that one!
 

Hawk

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I couldn't care less what they think.
I have a lawyer friend that is toying with the idea of a law suit. It probably wont work but hell it's a protest of sorts. Even if I stop paying and then eventually pay, it will make me feel a little better. It's a little early to be on this path so lets see how it shake out. But I would think that at least a credit for a portion would be something that is logically fair if I was restricted from using what I legally paid for and owned. No?
 

Hawk

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People who have to work jobs where getting covid is inevitable really get the shit end of the stick.

Yes that is a whole different level of shitty stick. I have friends now that have actually caught the disease in the health care industry. I am grateful for their loyalty to their work.
 

tumbler

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You also have the advantage of having your own place that you can really stock up on goods and have a base to do all your things without the threat of contamination of your accommodations from other people. This adds another good layer to the equation. People like us that own our places and pay taxes really get shit end of the stick. My family also lives in a town that has been green or even white with no cases for most of the summer. But we get lumped into a county that is red because of cities like Lynn and Lawrence that have a ton of nursing homes and other facilities that drove their numbers up. If I get restricted from coming up I am going to stop paying my taxes to the town of Warren.

I heard that MA is going to change their measuring metric and remove nursing homes and jails that are skewing the numbers. You're absolutely right on the county thing. It should be by town. The state has a nice map that is updated weekly showing cases in each town. It is not done by county.
 

skiur

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I couldn't care less what they think.
I have a lawyer friend that is toying with the idea of a law suit. It probably wont work but hell it's a protest of sorts. Even if I stop paying and then eventually pay, it will make me feel a little better. It's a little early to be on this path so lets see how it shake out. But I would think that at least a credit for a portion would be something that is logically fair if I was restricted from using what I legally paid for and owned. No?

I agree with you in principle, but in reality I think the only outcome would be you paying late fees on top of your tax bill.
 

mikec142

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I agree with you in principle, but in reality I think the only outcome would be you paying late fees on top of your tax bill.

Yep. Could turn into a hassle.

FWIW...I'm not trying to stir anything up. Just genuinely curious. You're not willing to break the quarantine rules to make a point, but your willing to break the law (not paying taxes) to make a point?
 

machski

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Yep. Could turn into a hassle.

FWIW...I'm not trying to stir anything up. Just genuinely curious. You're not willing to break the quarantine rules to make a point, but your willing to break the law (not paying taxes) to make a point?
If it is not his permanent residence and he has to pay taxes on the property, then isn't it more of a use tax? Regardless, a use/proerty tax is kind of a two way agreement. If so, if the munincipality restricts him for using what he owns haven't they already violated that tax agreement then by prohibiting him from using it? I guess one could argue he could rent it out (assuming there are renters looking/could use as well) and then he is still using his property. Still, I see a lot of legal questions this could raise up if these measures continue. When it first hit and we didn't really have a handle on how it spreads etc, that was one thing. Public health emergency, sucked but I think most of us got that. Now? How long does this go on? Too much longer it will get like the Boston Tea Party days, taxation without representation (in this case, that being allowed to even use one's property).

And before you say no way, look at NH taking MA to the Supreme Court to challenge MA income taxes being withheld from now fully remote workers living and working out of NH. These measures will surely draw legal challenges on property taxes of owners being barred from use should this carry on much longer as well.

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skiur

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If it is not his permanent residence and he has to pay taxes on the property, then isn't it more of a use tax? Regardless, a use/proerty tax is kind of a two way agreement. If so, if the munincipality restricts him for using what he owns haven't they already violated that tax agreement then by prohibiting him from using it? I guess one could argue he could rent it out (assuming there are renters looking/could use as well) and then he is still using his property. Still, I see a lot of legal questions this could raise up if these measures continue. When it first hit and we didn't really have a handle on how it spreads etc, that was one thing. Public health emergency, sucked but I think most of us got that. Now? How long does this go on? Too much longer it will get like the Boston Tea Party days, taxation without representation (in this case, that being allowed to even use one's property).

And before you say no way, look at NH taking MA to the Supreme Court to challenge MA income taxes being withheld from now fully remote workers living and working out of NH. These measures will surely draw legal challenges on property taxes of owners being barred from use should this carry on much longer as well.

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The state isn't saying he can't use his property, he just can't commute back and forth from boston without quarantine. I'm sure some lawyers or people with money to throw away will challenge the taxes but I don't see them winning.
 
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