The "Sugarbush Thread"

[SkiTheEast]

Bit off topic...and I'll caveat by saying I completely understand given the shattered finances from the pandemic but is anyone else noticing that the Alterra playbook has just brought exponential cost increases across everything?

We already talked about the astronomical cost of those single day tickets, base cabins and Brewfest tickets this year. Just for fun I just looked in to Allyn's Lodge dinners. In previous years - correct me if I'm wrong but - I think the Lawson's dinners up there were around 150 bucks (beer included). This year the dinners are pricing out at $240 with no included alcohol. I know most here on the forum, myself include, won't care but just seems wild the way costs have exploded. Obviously the market will dictate whether these prices are justified but based upon how empty the base cabins were for most of last season I'm wondering if this will result in a supply/demand disequilibrium.

 

[mikec142]

Bit off topic...and I'll caveat by saying I completely understand given the shattered finances from the pandemic but is anyone else noticing that the Alterra playbook has just brought exponential cost increases across everything?

We already talked about the astronomical cost of those single day tickets, base cabins and Brewfest tickets this year. Just for fun I just looked in to Allyn's Lodge dinners. In previous years - correct me if I'm wrong but - I think the Lawson's dinners up there were around 150 bucks (beer included). This year the dinners are pricing out at $240 with no included alcohol. I know most here on the forum, myself include, won't care but just seems wild the way costs have exploded. Obviously the market will dictate whether these prices are justified but based upon how empty the base cabins were for most of last season I'm wondering if this will result in a supply/demand disequilibrium.

The thing is we will most likely never know. The pandemic threw a wrench in everything. It would have been easy to compare a 2019 day ticket to 2020 day ticket to a 2021 day ticket. Then you would have easily been able to measure the Alterra effect. But the pandemic makes the comparison apples to oranges and harder to measure what is because of Alterra and what is because of the pandemic. If Win were still the owner, would the price jumps have been the same? Bottom line, we will never know.

From my perspective, I'm pretty happy with my Ikon pass and the benefits it gets me at Sugarbush.

 

[SkiTheEast]

The thing is we will most likely never know. The pandemic threw a wrench in everything. It would have been easy to compare a 2019 day ticket to 2020 day ticket to a 2021 day ticket. Then you would have easily been able to measure the Alterra effect. But the pandemic makes the comparison apples to oranges and harder to measure what is because of Alterra and what is because of the pandemic. If Win were still the owner, would the price jumps have been the same? Bottom line, we will never know.

From my perspective, I'm pretty happy with my Ikon pass and the benefits it gets me at Sugarbush.

Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing). Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.

Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.

 

[mikec142]

Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing). Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.

Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.

Yeah...I get you. My kids are 19 and 17, so no programs for them. But man do I wish we had done the blazer program when they were young.

I hope that both of our families can enjoy many seasons to come at an affordable cost.

 

[cdskier]

Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing). Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.

Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.

The base cabins didn't even exist until COVID. So there's no basis to compare them with anything. I thought they were ridiculously priced, but also didn't care. I've never been one to use the lodge that much at all even in a normal year. As for the dinners at Allyn's lodge...I always thought those were overpriced too (even pre-COVID). I never looked specifically at the Lawson's ones since beer dinner pairings don't appeal to me, so I'm comparing with the normal ones. I specifically remember the "normal" Allyn's lodge dinner pricing not including alcohol the last time I looked pre-COVID (although I also don't think they were $240/person last time I looked). And when it comes to dining out, I'm not exactly the type of person that cheaps out when I think the food or wine you're getting is worth it. $240 for Allyn's lodge dinner before alcohol is over my line though. I get that it is a unique experience, but that price is still over the top for me and not worth it. If they can charge those prices though and sell out...good for them. If they can't sell out, then they'll adjust accordingly (just like they did adjust the base cabin prices a bit last year after what was originally announced). I'm not too worried about the high prices for "non essential nice to haves" I guess. The skiing itself is still a ridiculous steal.

 

[Smellytele]

Prices are going up everywhere. My buddy works for a very large food distributor (C&S) and he says their costs are up almost 20%. This will trickle down sooner rather than later.

 

[rocojerry]

Looking forward to Sugarbush this year -- I dont think I entered VT last year. Friday 12/17 best guess on Mt Ellen home opener?

 

[ducky]

Ikon does not seem to be taking the Epic pricing bait. $1149 Ikon vs $819 Epic for full passes, or $849 vs $619 for the discounted, holiday blackout pass. MRG did not play the price game either and passes sold out a couple of months ago.

It's a strange year with real estate sales at dizzying heights here and practically zero season rentals. This true for local apartment rentals too and is a real problem for employers in the valley. Many former long-term rentals are now AirBnb/VRBO, aka STRs. All the restaurants are currently under-staffed with many closing midweek to give their staff a break.

Rob Katz (Vail CEO) happened to sit down next to me on a streetcar in New Orleans just after they bought Stowe for $50m. He explained the logic behind the purchase and how slashing pass prices had the effect of increasing overall revenue by 30%+/-. While reviled by the Stowe regulars, he was nice enough and engaging in person. Stowe has changed though and with just one way in and out, the traffic can be a big challenge and too much for many locals to deal with.

I think the biggest effect from the pricing will be with the Burlington-area locals and UVM students who truly have a choice where price is a concern.

 

[tumbler]

Oh yes totally agree and didn't mean to lay the blame solely at Alterra. Am also quite happy with my Ikon pass and benefits as well. Just lamenting the overall acceleration of the hikes. So far this is largely for what I would call the "non essential nice to haves" - (nobody NEEDS to rent a base cabin for a day of skiing). Moreso nervous that this will start to feed price hikes in the overall family experience - i.e. kids programs/camps.

Will just have to wait to see what the future brings.

Seasonal program prices have gone up and have been shortened by a few weekends. Ski areas barely make money anyway and coming out of Covid they need to try to do what they can. I think the pricing is a reflection of their pass sales, more passes sold=more expensive. Selfishly I would rather the more expensive pass and and services to keep the crowds away. See Epic and Stowe.

 

[djd66]

I am full on expecting the bars and restaurants to be a shit show. Service was always on the edge pre-covid. Given that there is such a huge problem finding people to work, I think it will be rough in the MRV. I'm going in with very low expectations and planning to eat most meals at home. Even last year - we tried to get takeout at the Fit to be Tied and they didn't pick up the phone for hours and when they did,... it was like a 3 hour wait (for takeout!) This summer the Paradise deli had to close the grill because they did not have a cook. I truly feel bad for all of these owners,... you work your ass off and you can't find anyone to help you.

My big request if anyone at Sugarbush is listening - can you have 3 bar tenders working at the bar? There is more than enough tip money to go around to justify it - just saying.

 

[ThatGuy]

I am full on expecting the bars and restaurants to be a shit show. Service was always on the edge pre-covid. Given that there is such a huge problem finding people to work, I think it will be rough in the MRV. I'm going in with very low expectations and planning to eat most meals at home. Even last year - we tried to get takeout at the Fit to be Tied and they didn't pick up the phone for hours and when they did,... it was like a 3 hour wait (for takeout!) This summer the Paradise deli had to close the grill because they did not have a cook. I truly feel bad for all of these owners,... you work your ass off and you can't find anyone to help you.

My big request if anyone at Sugarbush is listening - can you have 3 bar tenders working at the bar? There is more than enough tip money to go around to justify it - just saying.

The problem is the cost of living has drastically outpaced the ability to raise pay. The owners have no options since they’re already on such thin margins and the costs (food, labor, ect) continue to rise.

 

[slatham]

Well once trend that started pre-covid but has since accelerated is the requirement for ski areas to provide housing to staff. I can see this bleeding into other business, especially restaurants. If I were to open a restaurant right now I would only look for a building that has apartments above, or could easily accommodate apartments above.

 

[djd66]

The problem is the cost of living has drastically outpaced the ability to raise pay. The owners have no options since they’re already on such thin margins and the costs (food, labor, ect) continue to rise.

having unlimited unemployment benefits and a moratorium on evictions definitely did not help matters.

 

[Kingslug20]

Buying or building housing for employees is now..a huge cost..had they done this before everything went through the roof it would not be as bad. I doubt they can do it now regardless of how big a company they are....not impossible though..if they really want to solve the problem. Raise wages..or provide housing.

 

[Hawk]

I paid like $800 for my pass this year. Not bad I think the lift lines will be long because of it.
The cost for the warmng huts last year were cut in half because no one was biting. Still I never would have paid for that.
I have never done Allyns but friends do it all the time and then ski down with head lights. I see them all the time from my livingroom window. Looks like fun but I don't want to pay that kind of money.

I don't think the costs for the programs, meals and other things come from Altera. Sugarbush management set all the rates with very little input from the parent company.

 

[ducky]

Vermont's unemployment rate is currently 2.9% and the job vacancy rate is 7.4%. Vermont's workforce is about 54% of the 625,000 population, the rest being retired or too young. Even Casella was advertising locally for help during last night's NFL game. Covid crisis measures taken (by the last administration) regarding unemployment benefits and evictions had little to do with these figures in Vermont. There are simply more people here demanding goods and services than the workforce can provide. Almost everyone is short staffed and on top of that there is a global supply chain problem. Covid 19 has disrupted the economy. Many new people have moved here with remote jobs and it will take time for the equilibrium to be restored.

 

[nhskier1969]

I am full on expecting the bars and restaurants to be a shit show. Service was always on the edge pre-covid. Given that there is such a huge problem finding people to work, I think it will be rough in the MRV. I'm going in with very low expectations and planning to eat most meals at home. Even last year - we tried to get takeout at the Fit to be Tied and they didn't pick up the phone for hours and when they did,... it was like a 3 hour wait (for takeout!) This summer the Paradise deli had to close the grill because they did not have a cook. I truly feel bad for all of these owners,... you work your ass off and you can't find anyone to help you.

My big request if anyone at Sugarbush is listening - can you have 3 bar tenders working at the bar? There is more than enough tip money to go around to justify it - just saying.

With the shortage in the hospitality business, I feel the owners will adapt. How many have you been to the airport and sat down at the restaurant? Most of the restaurants have a iPad on each table. After you order from the iPad a runner brings over your drinks and food. This will probably happen in all hospitality businesses. Reducing staff increases the bottom line. We have already seen it with RFID tickets.

 

[djd66]

With the shortage in the hospitality business, I feel the owners will adapt. How many have you been to the airport and sat down at the restaurant? Most of the restaurants have a iPad on each table. After you order from the iPad a runner brings over your drinks and food. This will probably happen in all hospitality businesses. Reducing staff increases the bottom line. We have already seen it with RFID tickets.

How about a self service beer tap? I would be perfectly ok with that.

 

[Kingslug20]

Robots.....

 

[Hastur]

How about a self service beer tap? I would be perfectly ok with that.