The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Hawk]

Jay and the boys work very hard. I greatly appreciate what they do. I have always wondered why SB has not budgeted and provided more hoses and gun set ups so that they do not have to break down and move the stuff. That is a huge waste of time and effort. This is what other mountains do. I wonder what the payback is if you look at the hours spent breaking down, lugging equipment and setting up.
Also, If you run compressors with energy produced by solar or wind energy then you take that out of the equation. Make no mistake, snowmaking made with more air is far better quality snowmaking. Generally is has less water content at temps between 20 - 30. This is fact not my interpretation.
Again it comes down to the philosophy of the mountain. They do the best they can with the funds they have allotted.

 

[keyser soze]

Very interesting inside scoop on snowmaking above. It seems to be great weather make snow this week. Are they currently blowing any snow?

 

[mikec142]

Awesome info ShadyJay. Thanks!

 

[jimmywilson69]

Awesome info ShadyJay. Thanks!

yes thank you. I love hearing about stuff like that.

And thanks to Win for still stopping by and keeping us in the loop.

 

[cdskier]

*I used 1/2 as the date as that's the last day I have an e-mailed snow report for some reason and only the e-mail version includes the base and mid-mountain totals. The website only shows the summit total. Does anyone else subscribe to the daily snow report and did anyone else stop receiving it suddenly a few days ago or is it just me? I checked my mailing list preferences and "Daily Snow Report" is still checked. And I did receive one of the "News" type e-mails this afternoon from Sugarbush.

And just like that...this morning I received the snow report by e-mail again!

 

[HowieT2]

great progress on opening terrain. North lynx should come online shortly and then it’s pretty much there. I feel as if every year these first 2 weeks in January r tough. Real tough when following a bad December, both snowfall and temperature wise. generally things pick up around mlk.

 

[shadyjay]

And I answered my own question about the 'Rock...

Sugarbush Summer Report & Mountain Conditions

Discover all information surrounding open bike trails, and lift operations here!

www.sugarbush.com

On top of the current 83 trails, much of the Castlerock area opens for hiking from Paradise 10AM -3PM tomorrow and North Lynx is scheduled to open Saturday morning.

 

[pinnoke]

And just like that...this morning I received the snow report by e-mail again!

Having a connection to the reporting in the past, my guess is that someone unfamiliar with all the outlets might have been filling in for the regular reporter on that/those day(s).

 

[slatham]

Shady great info, thanks. One question - the Snowlogics run on constant water, always? It just doesn't make sense to not alter water flow at 26WB vs 16 WB.

Do HKD's operate in the same way? I thought water flow was adjusted but I'm just an interested tourist not a snowmaker.

 

[nhskier1969]

great progress on opening terrain. North lynx should come online shortly and then it’s pretty much there. I feel as if every year these first 2 weeks in January r tough. Real tough when following a bad December, both snowfall and temperature wise. generally things pick up around mlk.

Don't they still have Steins to make snow on? Do you guys think they will blow enough snow on Steins this year to stay open until May 2nd?

 

[shadyjay]

Shady great info, thanks. One question - the Snowlogics run on constant water, always? It just doesn't make sense to not alter water flow at 26WB vs 16 WB.

Do HKD's operate in the same way? I thought water flow was adjusted but I'm just an interested tourist not a snowmaker.

With SnowLogics (SLs), you have what are called "Steps" or "Banks". As the temps drop, you can add more water to the gun to produce more snow. As you add a bank, the water pressure at the gun drops, so you turn up the pressure at the hydrant to get it back up to the 400-600 range.

HKDs essentially operate the same way, though they do use more air than the logics, but still significantly less than the Ratniks. The HKD company is more tried and true than snow logic, they have been around for many years prior to SL with their tower guns. The land guns are a relatively new tool in the arsenal. I love their towers - they make really good snow and are less maintenance headaches than the SLs. Trails like Spring Fling, SB, Racer's, Pushover really come together nice with the HKD towers, providing the wind is right. Downspout used to be lined with them from OG flats down to HG, but we got rid of them due to the nightmare of skiers and groomers continuously burying them. Then again, the wind was never right on DS for towers.

According to the report, looks like Birdland, Murphys, and Sunrise are currently getting treatment. With North Lynx, you can't run both trails top to bottom at the same time due to the water pressure on the line. The lower half of Sunrise always takes a little more, since its wider and there's some good waterbars/streams to fill in. Then there's still HS/Waterfall, Lower SB/Racer's, and Stein's, then the spring build-up.

All this talk of snowmaking makes me want to come up there so bad. I've got a week off next week.,... not enough time for a 14-day quarantine.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

ooo they're gonna open the hike this weekend eh? nice. i was gonna mount ellen saturday but this has me lincoln peakin i think. hopefully not too crowded (which is why the plan was for ellen). killington sunday.

 

[Slidebrook87]

So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?

 

[Hawk]

ooo they're gonna open the hike this weekend eh? nice. i was gonna mount ellen saturday but this has me lincoln peakin i think. hopefully not too crowded (which is why the plan was for ellen). killington sunday.

From reports I got, there is less than a foot of natural snow in most locations. Bring your rock skis. Considering the amount of poaching that must be occurring,

 

[ss20]

So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?

Whales sit to let the water drain out of them so they'll groom out better. SB blows wet snow- so they let the snow sit for a while. K generally blows drier snow as most of their fleet is older high air guns, therefore they don't have to let the trail sit and drain as long. Killington will let the whales sit for a few days when they use their low energy guns, which are similar Snowlogic's SB uses, iirc. Even still it's pretty rare for K to immediately push out a trail after blowing regardless of the snow guns. No matter what gun you use that's going to be a pretty crappy first groom if you immediately push it out.

 

[Mt St Pipier]

So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?

The Bush seems to have cornered the market on blowing wet crappy snow into your face and then letting it sit for a week because 4 year olds find it fun. You don't see it many other places. Hopefully they'll eventually change.

Skiing With Whales​

Bob Ackland • Feb 17, 2016
Here in the East, this season’s natural snow has been in short supply so skiing has been pretty much confined to manmade snow trails, and the short windows of good snowmaking temperatures have made me more aware of huge mounds of manmade snow often referred to as whales. Snowmaking whales are not new to me; I have disliked them for many years. I hate skiing amongst them, and think it is lousy skiing, and frankly unsafe in many situations. My own ops team would push back and say it was necessary to let the snow drain, which initially made sense, but drain for how long? What made me question the concept more recently is that I experienced certain mountains pushing manmade snow much sooner than what I was used to and the skiing at these mountains on these surfaces was very good. This triggered a bunch of questions.

I had the recent opportunity to share my questions with someone who knows a whole lot more than I do about snow making, that being Brian “Tito” Alex. Here’s what Tito shared with me:

Snowmaking Whales
“Skiing on “whales” can lend itself to liability, whereas “porpoises” (smaller rounded piles) are often welcomed by ski Instructors. The reason is because when compared to flat groomed trials, these features naturally force students to off-weight and turn. Before terrain parks were formalized, these porpoises were the “features” that attracted snowboarders for hits and air.

The newer snow guns are only a small part of the blame for the whales. The low-e snow particles are not the issue. The whales are commonly formed because the trend is to use stationary guns and hydrant spacing is incorrect. Thus snowmakers make big piles to cover the distance between hydrants. Proper hydrant spacing reduces this problem.

A bigger part of the blame for whales is how snowmaking is managed. Well-trained teams seldom make whales. This is due to the following reasons:

1. The cost is expensive for grooming machines to doze piles.

2. Deep snow insulates itself. The lack of surface area hinders evaporation and drying. Thus, product in the middle of the pile is wetter. When dozed and groomed the quality can be poor.

3. Snow Quality – Most snowmakers are taught to make wet snow from the belief that it is more durable: which is not true. Reality is that these snow particles are not fully frozen. In other words, a hard-boiled egg vs a soft-boiled egg. Thus, when a groomer gets on a new pile of snow, the water is released and the wet snow does not till well. “Death Cookies” is slang term for the poorly tilled snow. So once the problem has been created, the solution is to stay off the piles until the water drains out. (Waiting for piles to leach out also minimizes trail counts which directly effects revenue)

4. Low-e technology has significantly increased the number of snow guns that are running, while labor has remained the same. It is impossible for a crew to give the same attention to many more snow guns, thus whales are more common. Most snowmaking crews are understaffed and this is the fault of management. The ratio of online snow guns to field staff tells the story for at your resort. Does the ratio remain similar in all operating conditions?

5. The most guns are running when it is the coldest. This is the opportunity to make the most snow for the least expense. Comparably, food service, retail and rentals increase staff for peak performance periods like weekends and holidays. Yet, when it is cold and snowmaking has the opportunity for peak performance, the staff size typically remains the same. This management error can be solved with flex staffing. (We have data from many resorts that shows the decrease in efficiency when temps are cold. But because piles are big, managers believe that productivity is high and this is incorrect)

6. The easiest solution to having no whales and improved snow quality is to move and pivot the snow guns more frequently. For manual guns, this takes labor.

7. Automation – process control will always produce more snow, better quality and superior placement than manual operated equipment. Most automated fan guns have an oscillator function which reduces whales and allows for better evaporation of moisture.

In my experience, proper snow quality is ready to ski without any time for water to drain from it. Progressive resorts often groom first, and then make snow on the trail so that skiers get a better experience. This takes a well-trained crew and cooperating wind. It is often done with manual snow guns, although automation helps. ASC used to refer to this as retail snow – and customers loved it.”

Tito and I are sharing information that might be disputed and questions management practices as they relate to snowmaking. We both fully recognize many of the challenges, money, labor and weather. However, I will add, significant amounts of dollars are being invested in snowmaking equipment without addressing the operational issues pointed out here. This is unfortunate and only compounds the disappointment of the skier or rider experience.

The challenge of labor has been apparent this season especially in the East, where snowmaking windows have been tight and crews are not large enough to take advantage of the weather windows. This problem will not fix itself as we all know, and as we look to next year’s planning, the discussions as to snowmaking management should be front and center with new ideas batted around the table.

Tito and I would be more than happy to work with you on developing a training/operating plan that enables you to maximize the output of your system and chases the whales out to sea.

whales-2Contact information for Tito:
Brian Tito Alex
SnowmakingEfficiency.com
406-261-6216

 

[Blurski]

Jay and the boys work very hard. I greatly appreciate what they do. I have always wondered why SB has not budgeted and provided more hoses and gun set ups so that they do not have to break down and move the stuff. That is a huge waste of time and effort. This is what other mountains do. I wonder what the payback is if you look at the hours spent breaking down, lugging equipment and setting up.
Also, If you run compressors with energy produced by solar or wind energy then you take that out of the equation. Make no mistake, snowmaking made with more air is far better quality snowmaking. Generally is has less water content at temps between 20 - 30. This is fact not my interpretation.
Again it comes down to the philosophy of the mountain. They do the best they can with the funds they have allotted.

AT $850/100ft x 75 guns x 4/gun = $255k/$30/hr Burden rate = 8,500mh/5man crew/8hr shift = 212days of snow making and paid off, say 4 years. Dont know if they last that long or not.

 

[machski]

So this may sound like a dumb question, but why do places like Killington immediately open and groom trails after they finish making snow on them while places like sugarbush let the whales sit and drain for a few days to a week or so?

The Bush seems to have cornered the market on blowing wet crappy snow into your face and then letting it sit for a week because 4 year olds find it fun. You don't see it many other places. Hopefully they'll eventually change.

Skiing With Whales​

Bob Ackland • Feb 17, 2016
Here in the East, this season’s natural snow has been in short supply so skiing has been pretty much confined to manmade snow trails, and the short windows of good snowmaking temperatures have made me more aware of huge mounds of manmade snow often referred to as whales. Snowmaking whales are not new to me; I have disliked them for many years. I hate skiing amongst them, and think it is lousy skiing, and frankly unsafe in many situations. My own ops team would push back and say it was necessary to let the snow drain, which initially made sense, but drain for how long? What made me question the concept more recently is that I experienced certain mountains pushing manmade snow much sooner than what I was used to and the skiing at these mountains on these surfaces was very good. This triggered a bunch of questions.

I had the recent opportunity to share my questions with someone who knows a whole lot more than I do about snow making, that being Brian “Tito” Alex. Here’s what Tito shared with me:

Snowmaking Whales
“Skiing on “whales” can lend itself to liability, whereas “porpoises” (smaller rounded piles) are often welcomed by ski Instructors. The reason is because when compared to flat groomed trials, these features naturally force students to off-weight and turn. Before terrain parks were formalized, these porpoises were the “features” that attracted snowboarders for hits and air.

The newer snow guns are only a small part of the blame for the whales. The low-e snow particles are not the issue. The whales are commonly formed because the trend is to use stationary guns and hydrant spacing is incorrect. Thus snowmakers make big piles to cover the distance between hydrants. Proper hydrant spacing reduces this problem.

A bigger part of the blame for whales is how snowmaking is managed. Well-trained teams seldom make whales. This is due to the following reasons:

1. The cost is expensive for grooming machines to doze piles.

2. Deep snow insulates itself. The lack of surface area hinders evaporation and drying. Thus, product in the middle of the pile is wetter. When dozed and groomed the quality can be poor.

3. Snow Quality – Most snowmakers are taught to make wet snow from the belief that it is more durable: which is not true. Reality is that these snow particles are not fully frozen. In other words, a hard-boiled egg vs a soft-boiled egg. Thus, when a groomer gets on a new pile of snow, the water is released and the wet snow does not till well. “Death Cookies” is slang term for the poorly tilled snow. So once the problem has been created, the solution is to stay off the piles until the water drains out. (Waiting for piles to leach out also minimizes trail counts which directly effects revenue)

4. Low-e technology has significantly increased the number of snow guns that are running, while labor has remained the same. It is impossible for a crew to give the same attention to many more snow guns, thus whales are more common. Most snowmaking crews are understaffed and this is the fault of management. The ratio of online snow guns to field staff tells the story for at your resort. Does the ratio remain similar in all operating conditions?

5. The most guns are running when it is the coldest. This is the opportunity to make the most snow for the least expense. Comparably, food service, retail and rentals increase staff for peak performance periods like weekends and holidays. Yet, when it is cold and snowmaking has the opportunity for peak performance, the staff size typically remains the same. This management error can be solved with flex staffing. (We have data from many resorts that shows the decrease in efficiency when temps are cold. But because piles are big, managers believe that productivity is high and this is incorrect)

6. The easiest solution to having no whales and improved snow quality is to move and pivot the snow guns more frequently. For manual guns, this takes labor.

7. Automation – process control will always produce more snow, better quality and superior placement than manual operated equipment. Most automated fan guns have an oscillator function which reduces whales and allows for better evaporation of moisture.

In my experience, proper snow quality is ready to ski without any time for water to drain from it. Progressive resorts often groom first, and then make snow on the trail so that skiers get a better experience. This takes a well-trained crew and cooperating wind. It is often done with manual snow guns, although automation helps. ASC used to refer to this as retail snow – and customers loved it.”

Tito and I are sharing information that might be disputed and questions management practices as they relate to snowmaking. We both fully recognize many of the challenges, money, labor and weather. However, I will add, significant amounts of dollars are being invested in snowmaking equipment without addressing the operational issues pointed out here. This is unfortunate and only compounds the disappointment of the skier or rider experience.

The challenge of labor has been apparent this season especially in the East, where snowmaking windows have been tight and crews are not large enough to take advantage of the weather windows. This problem will not fix itself as we all know, and as we look to next year’s planning, the discussions as to snowmaking management should be front and center with new ideas batted around the table.

Tito and I would be more than happy to work with you on developing a training/operating plan that enables you to maximize the output of your system and chases the whales out to sea.

whales-2Contact information for Tito:
Brian Tito Alex
SnowmakingEfficiency.com
406-261-6216

Interesting article, unfortunately the authors are quite late to the party. Decades ago when Sunday River (and yes, after LBO bought SB, SB too to some extent) used ground SR7/14 guns that were easily moved around, it was rare to see a newly blown trail with huge whales. The snowmaking team would move the guns around quite a bit during the make cycle to give a more uniform coverage over the trails. When the first tower air guns came out and started reducing energy use, SR bucked that trend and stayed with its ground guns to maintain a uniform distribution rather than blowing a trail with huge Whales. That gave way to the SR7 tower guns, which still used a ton of air but were constantly set up and ready to go (maybe you had to drag hose to and from) saving manpower time. They make whales, but elongated ones due to the substantial throw distance they have. Sugarbush had some of these, the last I remember were on Stein's. Don't ski enough to know if they finally changed those out, others will need to verify. Then the push to Low-E style guns, now SR is predominantly HKD SV-10 or its successors. And we often get big, wet whales very close to the guns that then need to "cure" usually for 24-48 hours depending on humidity levels before being pushed out . Obviously the old way witht he ground guns produced a better immediate product which was fine when electrical energy was cheap in the 80's/90's. Now, if we want the snow down, we have to deal with the less immediately good version.

 

[HowieT2]

ahhhh, what would a ski season be without the annual snowmaking debate? carry on.

Hawk, Ben skied yesterday and reported definite rock ski conditions on the natural snow trails.

 

[TSQURD]

But the rocks and grass poking through on the natural trails really help with depth perception in the flat light late in the day! The snow that is there is really nice