The "Sugarbush Thread"

[slatham]

I was shocked how dead the mountain was during a summer visit this year. And my family in the valley, when they talk about top spots for dinner, it’s always in Waterbury, which is a hike and not the MRV.

Wins master plan was to connect the base area with the village. Obviously huge progress when you think back to pre-Win days of the yurts etc., but there’s no continuous flow down to the village.

Personally I feel Sugarbush is not a good fit for Alterra when you compare it to Snowshoe, Stratton and Tremblant which are all major destination resorts with built out villages and year round activities.

 

[crystalmountainskier]

Personally I feel Sugarbush is not a good fit for Alterra when you compare it to Snowshoe, Stratton and Tremblant which are all major destination resorts with built out villages and year round activities.

Alterra has plenty of other mountains with similar to no offseason activities/villages. Crystal, Solitude, Snow Valley, June, A-Basin.

 

[jonnyco14]

I totally agree that communication hasn't been great and the lift/snowmaking in the early season last year was frustrating but Alterra did just install a new lift, snowmaking upgrades at Mt. Ellen, and there was a lodge expansion at Mt. Ellen in the past few years. Two of those years were covid. I think the big issue, is it seems like nothing is planned for the future as there hasn't been any communication. In comparison, Stratton released a master plan for the next 10 years. If we knew something was coming next year or the year after, I am sure we would be looking at it very differently.

It being quiet up at the mountain during the summer isn't new. Even with Mt. biking and disc golf, it was really quiet the last few years. I don't know what the answer is, but it has been this way for a while. I do think having more beds in the winter would help bring in more staff and also more visitors. It is hard to find inexpensive places during the busy times.

 

[MrGlen]

If the towns would actually permit workforce or employee housing complexes, you’d have the staff to run more restaurants, shops, and activity-based businesses. That, in turn, brings more visitors, more beds filled, and more spending at those establishments. The local economy grows, businesses can stay open consistently, and suddenly the valley starts feeling alive again.

Right now, it’s the opposite. Because there’s nowhere affordable for employees to live, nobody can staff these places — so businesses either close, shorten hours, or never even open. And because there’s less to do, fewer people stay around the mountain after skiing, which just reinforces the problem. It’s a frustrating cycle that the towns could easily help break.

I’m scratching my head on why there’s so much resistance to allowing employee housing developments. It’s not about turning the valley into a big resort village — it’s about creating a sustainable local economy that gives people a reason to stay, work, and invest here. Without that, it’s hard to see how the area moves forward.

Curious if anyone knows what’s holding this up — zoning, local politics, or just old-school resistance to change?

 

[thetrailboss]

If the towns would actually permit workforce or employee housing complexes, you’d have the staff to run more restaurants, shops, and activity-based businesses. That, in turn, brings more visitors, more beds filled, and more spending at those establishments. The local economy grows, businesses can stay open consistently, and suddenly the valley starts feeling alive again.

Right now, it’s the opposite. Because there’s nowhere affordable for employees to live, nobody can staff these places — so businesses either close, shorten hours, or never even open. And because there’s less to do, fewer people stay around the mountain after skiing, which just reinforces the problem. It’s a frustrating cycle that the towns could easily help break.

I’m scratching my head on why there’s so much resistance to allowing employee housing developments. It’s not about turning the valley into a big resort village — it’s about creating a sustainable local economy that gives people a reason to stay, work, and invest here. Without that, it’s hard to see how the area moves forward.

Curious if anyone knows what’s holding this up — zoning, local politics, or just old-school resistance to change?

This and the resulting demographic changes that have been decades in the making. There are less young people to be in the workforce.

 

[slatham]

Alterra has plenty of other mountains with similar to no offseason activities/villages. Crystal, Solitude, Snow Valley, June, A-Basin.

Yup, but not east coast.

And Solitude does have a village, and summer biking I believe.

 

[ThatGuy]

This and the resulting demographic changes that have been decades in the making. There are less young people to be in the workforce.

Im too lazy to look up the statistics but I would bet Vermont has one of the highest rates of people born in the state moving to another within 5 years of graduating high school.

 

[thetrailboss]

Im too lazy to look up the statistics but I would bet Vermont has one of the highest rates of people born in the state moving to another within 5 years of graduating high school.

This and one of the oldest populations. Along with a very small workforce.

 

[slatham]

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/14/americas-10-best-places-quality-of-life-top-states-for-business.html

 

[thetrailboss]

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/14/americas-10-best-places-quality-of-life-top-states-for-business.html

Yeah, but that means nothing if you can’t afford to survive.

 

[raisingarizona]

Alterra has plenty of other mountains with similar to no offseason activities/villages. Crystal, Solitude, Snow Valley, June, A-Basin.

Solitude is really busy all summer long now.

 

[1dog]

This and one of the oldest populations. Along with a very small workforce.

And more than a few ' I've got mine now , so no more housing projects'.
If a 20 year old were to stay, what would they do, short of working the farm, hospitality, or some other tourism-related position?

Wonder if ski/summer resorts became more of a training ground, like many Boston Hospitals.

Save some dough on wages, just have to provide some housing and career track(s).
Otherwise, who in their 20's wants to be where not a lot of young people are?

More fun making kids ( or at least practicing)w someone else, ain't it?

 

[Shredmonkey254]

And more than a few ' I've got mine now , so no more housing projects'.
If a 20 year old were to stay, what would they do, short of working the farm, hospitality, or some other tourism-related position?

Wonder if ski/summer resorts became more of a training ground, like many Boston Hospitals.

Save some dough on wages, just have to provide some housing and career track(s).
Otherwise, who in their 20's wants to be where not a lot of young people are?

More fun making kids ( or at least practicing)w someone else, ain't it?

Waterbury says mountain biking tourism brings in $1m annually — WFFF - My Champlain Valley

The report found that Waterbury's trails aren't just for tourists, either, as a number of residents surveyed moved to Waterbury to be closer to nature.

apple.news

 

[Lotso]

Hiked at ME last weekend. The new Tommy's Toy is a bit much. Weird alignment, too. Anyone using it has to start in the lodge and get down to it (tough if you are a rank begnner) then schlepp uphill to the lodge, or ski down, ride SQ, then ski a trail you probably shouldn't be on to get to the lodge. If you start at the bottom, you have to boot up in your car.

Strange use of what looks like a significant investment. The concrete blocks it sits on alone must have cost a bundle. Seems like this would have better suited LP.

Sorry NRX and GMX are on the back burner, and what's the money line on whether SBX runs this year?

 

[solar]

I totally agree that communication hasn't been great and the lift/snowmaking in the early season last year was frustrating but Alterra did just install a new lift, snowmaking upgrades at Mt. Ellen, and there was a lodge expansion at Mt. Ellen in the past few years. Two of those years were covid. I think the big issue, is it seems like nothing is planned for the future as there hasn't been any communication. In comparison, Stratton released a master plan for the next 10 years. If we knew something was coming next year or the year after, I am sure we would be looking at it very differently.

It being quiet up at the mountain during the summer isn't new. Even with Mt. biking and disc golf, it was really quiet the last few years. I don't know what the answer is, but it has been this way for a while. I do think having more beds in the winter would help bring in more staff and also more visitors. It is hard to find inexpensive places during the busy times.

I believe Win deserves credit for some of those improvements. Permits for the lodge expansion, for example, were filed in the February 2020 so the initial planning likely started well before then.

I was at KT and Killington this weekend and both were drawing in impressive crowds considering the cold and yesterday's rainy weather. Bolton had a pretty big crowd for their closing weekend Oct 12 with a couple sections of their lot full. I don't see why Sugarbush couldn't create a similar draw. Build a few more trails, especially easier, technical trails (as was planned a few years ago but also suspended) and tie them into the Mad River Rider's trail networks. Some of MRV's janky trails are the best in New England; old school, purist trails - just like the Sugarbush vibe. Bonus points if they work with Stark's to drop off/pick up at the base area.

In terms of communication, Boyne is a great example. They not only shared a 20-year plan back in 2010 but they're sticking very close to it. Here's Sugarloaf's: https://www.sugarloaf.com/sugarloaf-2030

 

[machski]

I believe Win deserves credit for some of those improvements. Permits for the lodge expansion, for example, were filed in the February 2020 so the initial planning likely started well before then.

I was at KT and Killington this weekend and both were drawing in impressive crowds considering the cold and yesterday's rainy weather. Bolton had a pretty big crowd for their closing weekend Oct 12 with a couple sections of their lot full. I don't see why Sugarbush couldn't create a similar draw. Build a few more trails, especially easier, technical trails (as was planned a few years ago but also suspended) and tie them into the Mad River Rider's trail networks. Some of MRV's janky trails are the best in New England; old school, purist trails - just like the Sugarbush vibe. Bonus points if they work with Stark's to drop off/pick up at the base area.

In terms of communication, Boyne is a great example. They not only shared a 20-year plan back in 2010 but they're sticking very close to it. Here's Sugarloaf's: https://www.sugarloaf.com/sugarloaf-2030

Funny you say that about Boyne, because the SL2030 up now is a very thin outline of plans coming up. They were much more specific not that long ago. Seems to me they are backing off outright promises of coming specific improvements, and saying trust us now.

 

[solar]

Funny you say that about Boyne, because the SL2030 up now is a very thin outline of plans coming up. They were much more specific not that long ago. Seems to me they are backing off outright promises of coming specific improvements, and saying trust us now.

I haven’t followed it that closely but the parts that I remember seem to be coming to fruition. What’s been downplayed?

 

[mikec142]

Saw some flakes flying on the Sugarbush webcam today, which got me fired up for the season.

On a separate note, I’ve been skiing Sugarbush for years, and I’ll always stand by the fact that it’s one of the best mountains in the East. The terrain, layout, and variety easily beat Killington and Stowe. The skiing itself is top tier. But lately, it feels like everything around the mountain is sliding in the wrong direction.

Regardless of whatever development plans are being discussed on the mountain, off the mountain the reality is that there are fewer restaurants, less going on, and the area in general just feels dead. I’m not saying the valley needs to turn into some overbuilt resort village, but it would be nice to see more life around the base area and down in the valley. The après scene, dining, and general buzz that make you want to hang out after skiing just aren’t there anymore.

And it’s not just winter. Aside from the golf course, the mountain is completely quiet in the summer. There’s almost nothing happening up there — no events, no activities, no reason to spend time around the base. Meanwhile, Killington and Stowe have leaned into being year-round destinations with events, hiking, biking, store and restaurants that keep people coming back even when there’s no snow.

Sugarbush, on the other hand, has the better mountain by far, but the overall experience has lost its spark. It feels like the resort and valley have been treading water while everyone else has been moving forward. One thing I feel like really holding things back is the lack of support for the construction of employee housing. If the valley supported more workforce housing, it would make it far easier for people to start and invest in local businesses, knowing they can actually find staff.

Imagine how much fun if someone put up a something similar to the whistlepig pavilion at Stowe with a nice outdoor ice rink, live music, and a local vendors around it with drinks and food. Or even a Wobly Barn style restaurant.

Anyone else feeling this way lately?

I pretty much agree with all of this. I've been a devoted SB skier for 15 or so years. For the first 10 years of that it was more often than not, family trips to SB. Now it's mostly just me. I think that the terrain is great and I love that they keep plenty of stuff ungroomed. Early on I was looking at buying a place up there. I never pulled the trigger and then the covid RE bump hit which made things that much more expensive. Now I'm glad that I didn't do it. Other than really fun skiing, there's simply not enough for my family and I to do up there, especially at night. I can count on one hand how many times I've stayed in the Valley. We stay in or around Burlington as there's more nightlife. Frankly Burlington has plenty of challenges, but that's probably best for another topic.

 

[Lotso]

I pretty much agree with all of this. I've been a devoted SB skier for 15 or so years. For the first 10 years of that it was more often than not, family trips to SB. Now it's mostly just me. I think that the terrain is great and I love that they keep plenty of stuff ungroomed. Early on I was looking at buying a place up there. I never pulled the trigger and then the covid RE bump hit which made things that much more expensive. Now I'm glad that I didn't do it. Other than really fun skiing, there's simply not enough for my family and I to do up there, especially at night. I can count on one hand how many times I've stayed in the Valley. We stay in or around Burlington as there's more nightlife. Frankly Burlington has plenty of challenges, but that's probably best for another topic.

Didn't know there was a "lack of support" for workforce housing construction. I think they just bagged the idea?

 

[ducky]

From what I've heard the big 200 unit housing project was nixxed by Sugarbush due to cost, ..as was downhill biking. Cost of lift maintenance, lift ops, patrol, bike shop, and food/beverage simply did not cover the limited income. Downhill biking is also much more equipment-specific (expensive) and relatively dangerous compared to trail riding.
The Town of Warren is actively looking at ways to increase affordable housing, including limits to STRs and allowing accessory apartments. Same for Waitsfield, who are also planning a downtown sewer project, at great expense.