The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Lotso]

Completely agree,... Why would they spend $500K on a magic carpet when this is much more important to the skiing public? (assuming a pump replacement is $500K)

That thing was a half a million???? Wow... the ROI on that will be minimal...

 

[thetrailboss]

Completely agree,... Why would they spend $500K on a magic carpet when this is much more important to the skiing public? (assuming a pump replacement is $500K)

Seems very odd.

 

[Getskied]

That thing was a half a million???? Wow... the ROI on that will be minimal...

In a vacuum it seems like a reasonable decision to bring back a surface lift for beginners at Ellen. Hopefully they can generate additional ski school revenue as a result. As a parent who had to drop off and pick up kids at both mountains in the past because there was no real program for beginners at Ellen I’d call it a big upgrade. Also now they can be almost assured to have two open “lifts” when GMX and Inverness go on simultaneous holds this winter.

 

[thetrailboss]

In a vacuum it seems like a reasonable decision to bring back a surface lift for beginners at Ellen. Hopefully they can generate additional ski school revenue as a result. As a parent who had to drop off and pick up kids at both mountains in the past because there was no real program for beginners at Ellen I’d call it a big upgrade. Also now they can be almost assured to have two open “lifts” when GMX and Inverness go on simultaneous holds this winter.

Well, that with the lift issue, but a new carpet means nothing if they do not have snow.

 

[cdskier]

Well, that with the lift issue, but a new carpet means nothing if they do not have snow.

Ellen's snow-making system isn't too bad given the size of the mountain and the fact that it doesn't open until later in December. Unless there was a super warm November AND December, they'll generally have no problem at ME with snow to run the carpet by the time it opens for the season.

Why haven't they been fixed in 9 years? that is borderline unbelievable.

Yea...it makes absolutely no sense to perform regular maintenance on something that they seemingly have no plans to use (for whatever bizarre reason). Still begs the question though of whether the cooling has been broken for 9 years or if they just chose not to use those compressors for 9 years and the cooling broke more recently. Either way, clearly seems like actually fixing (and using) these compressors would be a big help early season in marginal temps.

 

[Getskied]

Well, that with the lift issue, but a new carpet means nothing if they do not have snow.

Sure, and not saying adequate amounts of compressed air isn’t important for a major east coast ski resort either. Although as was stated earlier, Ellen has enough air and frankly since they don’t open until the week before Xmas and don’t resurface trails ever I would say the current system there isn’t really undersized for what is demanded of it. If this cold month continues as it appears to then Ellen will likely open with a high percentage of snowmaking terrain open as well.

 

[djd66]

In a vacuum it seems like a reasonable decision to bring back a surface lift for beginners at Ellen. Hopefully they can generate additional ski school revenue as a result. As a parent who had to drop off and pick up kids at both mountains in the past because there was no real program for beginners at Ellen I’d call it a big upgrade. Also now they can be almost assured to have two open “lifts” when GMX and Inverness go on simultaneous holds this winter.

I'm sure the new carpet will get used and will be nice for beginners. But if one of your main snowmaking water pumps is broken for 9 years,... fixing that should be a priority .

To the guys above who know more about this stuff than most of us,... thank you for sharing the inside info. I'm guessing 99.9999% of the skiing public has no idea this situation exists, which explains why they figured why spend the money on fixing something nobody knows about anyway..

 

[Getskied]

I'm sure the new carpet will get used and will be nice for beginners. But if one of your main snowmaking water pumps is broken for 9 years,... fixing that should be a priority .

To the guys above who know more about this stuff than most of us,... thank you for sharing the inside info. I'm guessing 99.9999% of the skiing public has no idea this situation exists, which explains why they figured why spend the money on fixing something nobody knows about anyway..

Well why not both. But I’m confused, you are mentioning a broken water pump and Fulgore’s comment is that air compressors are down. If I take the claims at face value then the lack of air is definitely an issue but mostly at marginal early season temps. Not something to minimize at all but at the end of the day only a piece of a much larger snowmaking infrastructure problem that LP has.

 

[fulgoreXC]

Seems very odd.

A lot is being made of the compressor situation at LP. There are a few things to understand here. To be clear the 500k number was given in response to the question about the cost for a new machine. As I understand it the machines are ready to go. The cooling system is what needs the work. And it definitely won't cost 500k to fix it. I'm sure if it meant the difference between being able to make snow and not, they would be brought online immediately. Which goes to the next issue. Making snow is more complicated than water and air volumes. When evaluating the max capacity of the system, crew size and capabilities are the real driver. 100 guns on SB is not the same as 100 guns on K or Stowe or Stratton. SB uses more land gear than most. Guns runs take 4 hrs +/-. It takes days to set up trails that don't have fixed gear. Transportation to the top of the trails is an issue. Too much snow for side by sides but not enough for snowmobiles. No, SB doesn't have a dedicated cabin cat to move the crews. Yes they have a small PB300 but not all crews can safely operate it. All this factors into what can be done and when. There have been some good points about nozzeling the guns or adding hydrants to cut down the spacing. But it really comes down to labor. So when looking at priorities, staff comes first then it's fixing things that will prevent snowmaking from occurring and then it's expanding or increasing the performance of the equipment used. All of that comes down to $ and the prioritization to where it's allocated. As I've said before, snowmaking is only one part of operating a ski area. Lifts are as or even more important.

So sure, 20k to fix the coolers would seem like a good investment. But that is often offset by spending 50 fixing pin holes in the main feed line under the asphalt on the access road. But that issue can't be remedied without spending millions on new pipe. No doubt the time will come when those extra compressors will need to be used... and that's why they are maintained every year even though there's no plan to use them. So to ensure that when the time comes, there's no excuses as to why not.

 

[Newpylong]

I think the issue at large is that Sugarbush is no longer owned by a small group of investors who really have to look at each and every investment under a microscope. Alterra is a near half a billion dollar a year company. If there are compressors unavailable to be used due to a broken cooling system, they should be fixed. If there is beer can thin feed lines under the parking lot they should be fixed. Same goes for lifts (look at last year's debacle). Either the mothership is not giving local management the tools they need or local management is not asking for them.

 

[thetrailboss]

Ellen's snow-making system isn't too bad given the size of the mountain and the fact that it doesn't open until later in December. Unless there was a super warm November AND December, they'll generally have no problem at ME with snow to run the carpet by the time it opens for the season.

Good point. I guess I was just saying on the list of priorities resort-wide. As a former North Homer I guess I'd be happy that it got the carpet (and some love).

 

[djd66]

A lot is being made of the compressor situation at LP. There are a few things to understand here. To be clear the 500k number was given in response to the question about the cost for a new machine. As I understand it the machines are ready to go. The cooling system is what needs the work. And it definitely won't cost 500k to fix it. I'm sure if it meant the difference between being able to make snow and not, they would be brought online immediately. Which goes to the next issue. Making snow is more complicated than water and air volumes. When evaluating the max capacity of the system, crew size and capabilities are the real driver. 100 guns on SB is not the same as 100 guns on K or Stowe or Stratton. SB uses more land gear than most. Guns runs take 4 hrs +/-. It takes days to set up trails that don't have fixed gear. Transportation to the top of the trails is an issue. Too much snow for side by sides but not enough for snowmobiles. No, SB doesn't have a dedicated cabin cat to move the crews. Yes they have a small PB300 but not all crews can safely operate it. All this factors into what can be done and when. There have been some good points about nozzeling the guns or adding hydrants to cut down the spacing. But it really comes down to labor. So when looking at priorities, staff comes first then it's fixing things that will prevent snowmaking from occurring and then it's expanding or increasing the performance of the equipment used. All of that comes down to $ and the prioritization to where it's allocated. As I've said before, snowmaking is only one part of operating a ski area. Lifts are as or even more important.

So sure, 20k to fix the coolers would seem like a good investment. But that is often offset by spending 50 fixing pin holes in the main feed line under the asphalt on the access road. But that issue can't be remedied without spending millions on new pipe. No doubt the time will come when those extra compressors will need to be used... and that's why they are maintained every year even though there's no plan to use them. So to ensure that when the time comes, there's no excuses as to why not.

Thanks for all the insight,... you seem to know what your talking about.

Not sure if its feasible,... If the main line has pin holes, is it possible to reline the pipes?

 

[HowieT2]

A lot is being made of the compressor situation at LP. There are a few things to understand here. To be clear the 500k number was given in response to the question about the cost for a new machine. As I understand it the machines are ready to go. The cooling system is what needs the work. And it definitely won't cost 500k to fix it. I'm sure if it meant the difference between being able to make snow and not, they would be brought online immediately. Which goes to the next issue. Making snow is more complicated than water and air volumes. When evaluating the max capacity of the system, crew size and capabilities are the real driver. 100 guns on SB is not the same as 100 guns on K or Stowe or Stratton. SB uses more land gear than most. Guns runs take 4 hrs +/-. It takes days to set up trails that don't have fixed gear. Transportation to the top of the trails is an issue. Too much snow for side by sides but not enough for snowmobiles. No, SB doesn't have a dedicated cabin cat to move the crews. Yes they have a small PB300 but not all crews can safely operate it. All this factors into what can be done and when. There have been some good points about nozzeling the guns or adding hydrants to cut down the spacing. But it really comes down to labor. So when looking at priorities, staff comes first then it's fixing things that will prevent snowmaking from occurring and then it's expanding or increasing the performance of the equipment used. All of that comes down to $ and the prioritization to where it's allocated. As I've said before, snowmaking is only one part of operating a ski area. Lifts are as or even more important.

So sure, 20k to fix the coolers would seem like a good investment. But that is often offset by spending 50 fixing pin holes in the main feed line under the asphalt on the access road. But that issue can't be remedied without spending millions on new pipe. No doubt the time will come when those extra compressors will need to be used... and that's why they are maintained every year even though there's no plan to use them. So to ensure that when the time comes, there's no excuses as to why not.

My head is going to explode. Didnt they replace the pipe under the access road before Win sold to Altera???
If the problem comes down to labor as you now say, why havent they been investing in more automated systems? previously you said the fan guns are more expensive to operate than tower guns but they can be operated automatically and remotely without any labor other than a guy monitoring from a control room drinking coffee.

can't believe I got suckered into this snowmaking shit again. fook me. I need to make some turns

 

[fulgoreXC]

My head is going to explode. Didnt they replace the pipe under the access road before Win sold to Altera???
If the problem comes down to labor as you now say, why havent they been investing in more automated systems? previously you said the fan guns are more expensive to operate than tower guns but they can be operated automatically and remotely without any labor other than a guy monitoring from a control room drinking coffee.

can't believe I got suckered into this snowmaking shit again. fook me. I need to make some turns

I'm with ya... snowmaking is an endless topic and for every mountain there's 15 opinions on how it should be done. I will say, automation is the way of the future. The industry is getting better every year. But there are limitations. Like operating fan guns. They need to be tended to. These are not george foreman grills. It's definitely not "set it and forget it". I've seen lot's of carnage when they were neglected. The bottom line is, everything takes money and even with a billion-dollar company every expense has to be justified and decision scrutinized. Just like life, prioritize the areas where you can make the biggest and most effective impact and let the rest sort itself out.