Time for public flogging of resorts that misrepresent the truth

[bobbutts]

Pat's has glades on the map yet reports percentage as 100% even when they're closed (fis glade is closed now). And the headline of the report is spin for sure. I think they should improve their reporting there. Not a big deal to me and I'm renewing my pass there for next year, but I don't believe their report or recommend it to anyone.

BTW It appears to be a wait and see on this weekend's conditions:

THIS IS A VERY LOW CONFIDENCE FORECAST. BEFORE THE 12Z RUN...THE
GFS WAS TAKING THE LOW FURTHER OFFSHORE AND PRODUCING OVER A FOOT
OF SNOW ACROSS MAINE AND NEW HAMPSHIRE. THE 00Z
ECMWF...HOWEVER...HAD A MUCH WARMER SOLUTION GIVING NORTHERN NEW
ENGLAND ALL RAIN. THE 12Z GFS CAME 11C DEGREES WARMER AT 850MB
THAN THE 06Z GFS. NOT REALLY WHAT YOU WOULD CALL GOOD RUN TO RUN
CONSISTENCY.

 

[hiroto]

Mad River Glen is honest and will even report rain. Not many places report rain.

Another good reporting which hasn't mentioned is Jay Peak. On their top page, right in the middle (not in snow report a click away), they did mentioned it rained today. Attitash did mention rain too.

I also noted that majority of mountain don't say anything in the snow report at all. Most of them just fill in form with single description for "Condition:", or "Primary condition" + "Secondary condition". Those are hardly informative.

 

[riverc0il]

I just looked at both resorts. Pats Peak is reporting wet snow...not sure how that is a lie....and Loon is reporting that lifts are down due to wind...not sure why you think that is a lie either....

If they got anything down there like we got up here, "wet snow" is about as far as you can stretch the truth without it breaking and snapping back in your face like a rubber band. We had a very minor accumulation but definitely nothing that I would consider wet snow. Might have been different down there but that is pretty rare.

 

[riverc0il]

Another good reporting which hasn't mentioned is Jay Peak. On their top page, right in the middle (not in snow report a click away), they did mentioned it rained today. Attitash did mention rain too.

Jay has done well this year, substantial improvement in conditions reporting and down right frank when it is all rain, freezing rain, or sleet.

 

[riverc0il]

I understand that some might be very upset about this weather, but again, I see no constructive purpose served by bashing resorts that don't deserve to be bashed. How about we focus on who is going skiing this weekend rather than this bash-fest?

Not to break this down into a meta discussion, but I think public flogging is an important aspect of collective discourse, especially in the internet age in which consumers can have a strong voice when used collectively. This is the one arena where consumers can collectively hold companies accountable when they do bad by the consumers' standards.

Whether those resorts mentioned in this thread deserve the flogging, individual posters can be the judge. While the educated and informed skier/rider knows that most snow condition reports are marketing directed, carefully worded, and essentially truthful statements meant to intice visits, the average skier/rider/family may be more apt to rely on said first hand information and read it verbatim. Holding snow condition reports in a public setting benefits those not so well versed in the dynamics of conditions reporting aside from also letting the regulars vent a little frustration at a perceived outrageous offense to the spirit of the activity.

Dismissing threads that aim to keep the industry accountable seems like pandering towards the industry and having a rosy colored glasses outlook. We can focus on who is going skiing this weekend, this is just not the thread dedicated to that topic.

 

[riverc0il]

They also are a host for a group of folks from the board who have a race team there. Those members pay the registration fees and represent the board.

Just to keep things straight, Pat's is not a host for the team. We pay them, they put up gates, we race. They are no more a "host" for our team than any other of the Corporate Race Teams that race their. My skiing with the AZ team is not as a representative of this forum. It is a team name which makes sense since this is the forum we met and communicate through. The AZ team races with non-AZ participants as well.

Bumpsis' comment may have been out of line but the perception does exist that this forum has strong industry ties. That is just the way it is and everyone can take it or leave it and do what they will with that. I think we can all agree that is a tough line to walk and is usually done pretty well around here.

 

[Greg]

Look, I consider myself a pretty good friend of Gregs so take this with that in mind. I dont see him out pushing the positive all the time. he usually just says nothing in cases like this but he is a skier first and foremost and a proprietor of this board a distant second. Look at his reports from sugarbush this week. He isnt out there saying its the best conditions ever or excluding the fact that they have gotten rain, sleet warmth etc. Its a fine line he walks and one i'm glad i dont have to do.

Actually, today was pretty damn radical despite the sleet, rain and warmth. But I'm pretty easy to please; no powder snob here, remember...

And "public flogging?" Please. :roll: Anyone that can't read between the lines, or make an educated guess as to what the conditions really are (based on weather forecasts/reports, radar imagery, TRs, and simple past experience) is just looking for something to complain about.

And calling out TTB and claiming there is some sort of financial motivation behind his comments is uncalled for, baseless and pretty lame. Also, like 2knees said, I'm a member here first and an admin second, but if anyone want to label me a sell-out then knock yourselves out. The reality is I'm just not a whiner.

 

[thetrailboss]

If they got anything down there like we got up here, "wet snow" is about as far as you can stretch the truth without it breaking and snapping back in your face like a rubber band. We had a very minor accumulation but definitely nothing that I would consider wet snow. Might have been different down there but that is pretty rare.

"Wet Snow" referred to the skiing surface....not what they got from the storm.

 

[thetrailboss]

Dismissing threads that aim to keep the industry accountable seems like pandering towards the industry and having a rosy colored glasses outlook. We can focus on who is going skiing this weekend, this is just not the thread dedicated to that topic.

There was no pandering at all. Billski made a claim about some resorts. I looked into it as an individual and found that he was not providing the whole picture. Ski areas market and that, for better or worse, does extend to snow reporting at times. He leveled some pretty serious allegations ("misleading" IIRC) and I was a bit surprised when PP got this kind of criticism based on my experience with them...well, I looked at the snow report and did not see anything misleading there when looking at all of the info, I did not see anything that was egregious or out of the ordinary.

Riv, you know that I am often in the consumer's corner but before drawing conclusions or rushing to judgment, I look at the facts. In this case, the fuss was over some hype that was within an otherwise typical ski report. I think that is a bit much to start a :flame: war against certain resorts myself. That's my honest opinion....and nobody else's.

Besides, if I was "in the industry's pocket" as some said, and you seem to infer, wouldn't I have just locked this thread in the beginning????

 

[hammer]

"Wet Snow" referred to the skiing surface....not what they got from the storm.

They have snow and it rained...isn't that what wet snow is?

IMHO, Pats is a well-run ski area that provides a very good product to its target audience. Have I always had all perfect experiences there? Of course not...but I believe that the vast majority of AZers that have been there are positive on the place.

So they need to be a little more "brutally honest" about their snow reports...maybe we can all agree on that point without being critical of the place as a whole and move on to examine reports from other ski areas.

 

[riverc0il]

Besides, if I was "in the industry's pocket" as some said, and you seem to infer, wouldn't I have just locked this thread in the beginning????

I never meant to infer any one here was in the industry's pocket. Just suggesting that dismissing threads that are critical of the industry is not in the best interest of the consumer. By all means, let's criticize bad logic and posts that are unsubstantiated or make claims that don't hold water. But denouncing the activity of flogging in general was the issue I took in my post.

 

[thetrailboss]

I never meant to infer any one here was in the industry's pocket. Just suggesting that dismissing threads that are critical of the industry is not in the best interest of the consumer. By all means, let's criticize bad logic and posts that are unsubstantiated or make claims that don't hold water. But denouncing the activity of flogging in general was the issue I took in my post.

I think I have made my POV more than clear.....

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I agree with TB's original point that all the resorts now use that type of language, they put a positive spin on the conditions...it's called marketing. I understand what your saying but from the resort's perspective they see things abit diferent, I can't fault them for that unless they out and out lie about something. The resorts in the NE are in a pretty competitive environment.

Curious if you were at any of the resorts you mentioned today? Here at the Bush the skiing was pretty good, actually very good on the upper mountain where it snowed while at the base there was mixed participitation. People with proper clothing and stayed dry enjoyed the day, those that did not, not so much.

 

[BLESS]

Not to break this down into a meta discussion, but I think public flogging is an important aspect of collective discourse, especially in the internet age in which consumers can have a strong voice when used collectively. This is the one arena where consumers can collectively hold companies accountable when they do bad by the consumers' standards.

Whether those resorts mentioned in this thread deserve the flogging, individual posters can be the judge. While the educated and informed skier/rider knows that most snow condition reports are marketing directed, carefully worded, and essentially truthful statements meant to intice visits, the average skier/rider/family may be more apt to rely on said first hand information and read it verbatim. Holding snow condition reports in a public setting benefits those not so well versed in the dynamics of conditions reporting aside from also letting the regulars vent a little frustration at a perceived outrageous offense to the spirit of the activity.

Dismissing threads that aim to keep the industry accountable seems like pandering towards the industry and having a rosy colored glasses outlook. We can focus on who is going skiing this weekend, this is just not the thread dedicated to that topic.

well said.

 

[BLESS]

Actually, today was pretty damn radical despite the sleet, rain and warmth. But I'm pretty easy to please; no powder snob here, remember...

And "public flogging?" Please. :roll: Anyone that can't read between the lines, or make an educated guess as to what the conditions really are (based on weather forecasts/reports, radar imagery, TRs, and simple past experience) is just looking for something to complain about.

And calling out TTB and claiming there is some sort of financial motivation behind his comments is uncalled for, baseless and pretty lame. Also, like 2knees said, I'm a member here first and an admin second, but if anyone want to label me a sell-out then knock yourselves out. The reality is I'm just not a whiner.

Also well said, like I said, I myself look here for weather/conditions because I know you folks do it right, and for that I'm thankful.... but, should the average day/weekend skier, who may know nothing about this site, have to "read between the lines" shouldn't the places just be totally honest?


Some mountains' "spins" remind me of car dealers/salesman...which IMHO is not a good thing.

 

[Mapnut]

So are the resorts really helping or hurting themselves with too much spin? I agree with Bill that the Loon website seems to be saying "the skiing is great right now", and if you don't read critically you might be fooled. Even on the snow report page, where it says "frozen granular", they have a comment "A beautiful spring day, come on up and enjoy the sunshine." The small print also says 24 degrees, and it's March 6th. Not spring skiing at its best, and not even spring.

So what happens when customers arrive expecting great conditions and find it's not? Does the resort worry about alienating customers, or would they rather maximize ticket sales on a given day? Loon might be in an uncommon situation, where they have all the customers they can handle on weekends, but would like to get more people midweek. So if they get some people to come and pay, they might not worry too much whether they come back. A financially marginal resort, say Ragged, ought to be real careful about upsetting potential customers. If someone finally decides to go out of their way and make their first trip to Ragged, they may have only one chance to please that customer.

 

[hiroto]

I agree with TB's original point that all the resorts now use that type of language, they put a positive spin on the conditions...it's called marketing.

I cannot agree that majority of resort does marketing spin on their snow report. Actually, majority of snow reports are like this one from Waterville. They are just a form to fill in without any descriptive comments. Not too informative but no marketing spin either.

There are some mountains (I noted MRG, Jay Peak and Gunstock) who puts in some human touch to their report with informative description of what happened at the mountain up to that morning (and update it through the day as things changes).

And there are other mountains who puts marketing language into their snow report.

I guess I'm not particulary complaining about those marketing languages, but wishing for them to provide more information since some other mountains are doing it.

Anyone that can't read between the lines, or make an educated guess as to what the conditions really are (based on weather forecasts/reports, radar imagery, TRs, and simple past experience) is just looking for something to complain about.

That is a strong generalization. You yourself admit in your SB trip report you expected 2 and got 8. Radar image just doesn't provide you enough information that on the mountain maintenance people can provide.

Personally, I'm really easy to be please too. I can just go to a mountain regardless and I can always enjoy whatever I get and I'm no powder snob either :wink: (although I wish I can afford to be). But for this season, I'm paying a lots of attention to those reports for my daughter since we are not bound to Wawa for my son's program and we are travelling to many different mountains. Last year was easy. 8 o'clock at Wawa every Sunday morning. Nothing to think about except for long vacation trips.

What my daughter can ski/cannot ski changes drastically depending on the surface condition. She enjoyed Attitash when it was nice soft packed powder in December, but there aren't much she can do there if it were on icy side. She can enjoy nice long runs at Bretton Woods when it is relatively icy, and there are lot she can do at Pats Peak. So it is new to me to think so hard and browse so many information to decide where to go on weekends, and in the process, I started to see the difference in the qualitfy of reporting from different mountains.

 

[thetrailboss]

I cannot agree that majority of resort does marketing spin on their snow report. Actually, majority of snow reports are like this one from Waterville. They are just a form to fill in without any descriptive comments. Not too informative but no marketing spin either.

Both Pats Peak and Loon had the same kind of report that you just mentioned...it's just they had a short paragraph that trumpeted the snow that they got in the previous week.

To zero in on that little bit of language and ignore the rest of the report is being very picky IMHO.

 

[hiroto]

To zero in on that little bit of language and ignore the rest of the report is being very picky IMHO.

Why do you zero in on little bit of languge in my post and ignore the rest of the post? The part you quoted is to point out that not every mountain does spin on their snow report. I'm primariy praising some mountain for very informative information, and not complaining about the spin, but wishing those mountains to add that kind of information too.

Here is the top part of today's snow report from Gunstock.

The Mountain held up well with yesterday's storm, and the groomers were at it all night. It may be a bit fast in the morning but will soften up as the day goes on. Weather is expected in the low 40s with sunshine so it will be a great day to get out there and ski or ride. Trail count may change as Safety Services checks the conditions. Call in sick, take the day off and enjoy the best winter in years. Dont forget to check out the newest season pass deals for 08-09, its the best deal in New England!

I like the fact they first acknowledge the adverse condition they had the day before and very informative to get the sense of how the day is going to be like. And after that is out of the way, they added the marketing pitch.

 

[thetrailboss]

Why do you zero in on little bit of languge in my post and ignore the rest of the post? The part you quoted is to point out that not every mountain does spin on their snow report. I'm primariy praising some mountain for very informative information, and not complaining about the spin, but wishing those mountains to add that kind of information too.

I think we agreed....and my post refers back to the original dilemma.

And I did read the rest of your post...I did not ignore it....