Time for public flogging of resorts that misrepresent the truth

[billski]

Why do you zero in on little bit of languge in my post and ignore the rest of the post?

I was having the same problem with debating this. I abandoned this discussion, it was not progressing, it was more talking and less listening.

 

[thetrailboss]

I was having the same problem with debating this. I abandoned this discussion, it was not progressing, it was more talking and less listening.

That's probably the most hypocritical thing I have heard....since you were doing it yesterday with the reports that you cited....

:roll:

Again, you jumped on some of the language of the report without giving the whole report justice.

 

[billski]

That's probably the most hypocritical thing I have heard....since you were doing it yesterday with the reports that you cited....

:roll:

Again, you jumped on some of the language of the report without giving the whole report justice.

Here we go again. You need to get the the last word, I'm done, it's your forum, mr. moderator.

 

[Greg]

Also well said, like I said, I myself look here for weather/conditions because I know you folks do it right, and for that I'm thankful.... but, should the average day/weekend skier, who may know nothing about this site, have to "read between the lines" shouldn't the places just be totally honest?

Some mountains' "spins" remind me of car dealers/salesman...which IMHO is not a good thing.

Perhaps. But this same crowd is probably, more often than not, very content with machine groomed surfaces/loose granular. Anyone who is looking for powder, bumps, trees, etc. (the majority of the AZ membership) should inherently know how to interpret the "real conditions" and not be fooled by "packed powder" which, BTW is not something new.

Ultimately, it's the ski areas will need to take ownership of any perceived false conditions reporting, but again, they've been reporting "packed powder" when the surface is simply not that for a long time. The problem is that in order to be competitive in an industry where the growth is essentially flat, then you sort of have to do what the competitors do, be it inflating/exaggerating conditions reporting, trail counts, etc. There is simply no authority to oversee these "stats" so it's up to the consumer to learn how to accurately interpret it all. Anything less is simply just whining.

 

[mamaspice]

I hope you all don’t mind an industry rep chiming in here. While I don’t want to flog anyone, we (Mount Snow) also don’t like to mislead anyone. When it’s raining, we say it’s raining. Period. When trails are not up to our standards, we close them. Period. Yesterday, after the rain, we had 39 of our 107 trails listed as open. We’ve been opening them as the sun and the groomers soften them up, and we're now at around 75. No doubt, over the years, there has been a loss of credibility, and we want it back. As for spin, please keep in mind that most people that read snow reports are not AZ aficionados. They think that after a day of rain, all the snow is washed away. We have to keep hammering base depth, snowmaking and snowfall messages to make sure the average skier knows that we still have edge-to-edge, top-to-bottom terrain, even after a bout of bad weather. The folks who read and post on this forum are often able to draw their own conclusions, but most skiers are not. So we try to find a balance between listing the facts and promoting our product. I am open to any and all feedback.

 

[billski]

I hope you all don’t mind an industry rep chiming in here. While I don’t want to flog anyone, we (Mount Snow) also don’t like to mislead anyone. When it’s raining, we say it’s raining. Period. When trails are not up to our standards, we close them. Period. Yesterday, after the rain, we had 39 of our 107 trails listed as open. We’ve been opening them as the sun and the groomers soften them up, and we're now at around 75. No doubt, over the years, there has been a loss of credibility, and we want it back. As for spin, please keep in mind that most people that read snow reports are not AZ aficionados. They think that after a day of rain, all the snow is washed away. We have to keep hammering base depth, snowmaking and snowfall messages to make sure the average skier knows that we still have edge-to-edge, top-to-bottom terrain, even after a bout of bad weather. The folks who read and post on this forum are often able to draw their own conclusions, but most skiers are not. So we try to find a balance between listing the facts and promoting our product. I am open to any and all feedback.

Nice post, well-balanced response, thanks. You're right, the AZ group (or at least the vocal minority) makes their own assessments quite well. Ralph Nader was critical of cars without wanting them banned. He wanted them improved or the real rotten apples removed (a-la Ford Pinto.) So do we; we love sliding too much, we want to see each and every resort prosper, we're vested too.

The best sales people in any organization are the most enthusiastic. You're heading in the right direction by doing all you can to enthusiastically promote your enterprise, I support that. Going over the factual line is something that an overly enthusiastically promoter can easily succumb to.

For Joe Average skier, to get to a mountain and be disappointed is a very expensive mistake, not easily forgotten. That said, I think Joe Averages is scared away by a weather report when sometimes there is no reason to be.

For Joe AZ skier, I consistently hear "things were much better than expected." This forum can easily over-analyze the data. I sometimes think we now have TOO MUCH data here. We can have a great time in quite a variety of conditions.

Thanks for chiming in. If you walk the talk (and I have no reason to doubt you), I'm with you!

 

[tcharron]

I hope you all don’t mind an industry rep chiming in here.

Mind? Heck, it's encouraged! :-D

While I don’t want to flog anyone, we (Mount Snow) also don’t like to mislead anyone. When it’s raining, we say it’s raining. Period. When trails are not up to our standards, we close them. Period. Yesterday, after the rain, we had 39 of our 107 trails listed as open.

....

As for spin, please keep in mind that most people that read snow reports are not AZ aficionados. They think that after a day of rain, all the snow is washed away. We have to keep hammering base depth, snowmaking and snowfall messages to make sure the average skier knows that we still have edge-to-edge, top-to-bottom terrain, even after a bout of bad weather. The folks who read and post on this forum are often able to draw their own conclusions, but most skiers are not. So we try to find a balance between listing the facts and promoting our product. I am open to any and all feedback.

Perhaps a good way to make up for this to to have some sort of 'The Groomers Blog' or something that is a lower level summarization of one person representing the mountain in general. Almost like a mini trip report. A good example of a simple trip report, with many pictures:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/24979-ragged-03-02-08-sweeeeeeeeeet.html

Another one with good textural examples is:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/25067-ski-sundown-3-3-08-night.html

Obviously we wouldn't see as much 'Oh hell, ruts and solid ice, etc'. Just something that gives a good 'overview of the trails'. Specifically, in real, honest HUMAN language. This could actually provide MORE information as to why at one point in time, a whole lot of trails where closed. And emphisize the trails that are open, and their condition.

I mean, mountains must have someone who makes the decisions of what's open, why, and what the conditions are in various parts of the mountains. Give em a blog! :-D

 

[tcharron]

So we try to find a balance between listing the facts and promoting our product. I am open to any and all feedback.

Here's a better example, using Mt Snow as an example. Obviously the rundown would be different, but the point is, it's a personal description of things.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/24776-mount-snow-feb-27-2008-a.html?highlight=mount+snow

I guess it's the format and amount of information. It also gives you an outlet to express to people the conditions, so they can say, 'Hey, the suck trails are closed because they suck, but look at these awesome conditions described on the ones they have open.. Lez GO!'

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I mean, mountains must have someone who makes the decisions of what's open, why, and what the conditions are in various parts of the mountains. Give em a blog! :-D

They're called the ski patrol.

 

[tcharron]

They're called the ski patrol.

Sometimes trails aren't closed because they're unsafe, but for other reasons. At least that's my assumption.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

[

For Joe Average skier, to get to a mountain and be disappointed is a very expensive mistake, not easily forgotten. That said, I think Joe Averages is scared away by a weather report when sometimes there is no reason to be.

For Joe AZ skier, I consistently hear "things were much better than expected." This forum can easily over-analyze the data. I sometimes think we now have TOO MUCH data here. We can have a great time in quite a variety of conditions.

!

Sometimes trails aren't closed because they're unsafe, but for other reasons. At least that's my assumption.

OK, maybe some mountains save trails for weekend crowds, but ski patrol makes the call on what trails open the overwhelming majority of the time. That’s true at any mountain.

Since AZers pride themselves on not being Average Joe skiers I'd assume everyone would know that.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

[



OK, maybe some mountains save trails for weekend crowds, but ski patrol makes the call on what trails open the overwhelming majority of the time. That’s true at any mountain.

Since AZers pride themselves on not being Average Joe skiers I'd assume everyone would know that.

That post comes off as me being a prick. Thing is we are a forum of average Joe skiers, some ski more then others, some are more skilled then others, some have season passes and some don’t, some are affiliated with a mountain or ski manufacture, etc., but we’re all a bunch of Average Joe recreationals who love to ski. I’m proud to be one of them.

 

[tcharron]

That post comes off as me being a prick. Thing is we are a forum of average Joe skiers, some ski more then others, some are more skilled then others, some have season passes and some don’t, some are affiliated with a mountain or ski manufacture, etc., but we’re all a bunch of Average Joe recreationals who love to ski. I’m proud to be one of them.

No, didn't take it that way, it's all good. :-D

But based on the Mt Snow example, there was no mention of safety. There was an inference that it was to get the trails 'into shape'.

 

[MountSnowReporter]

Actual Snow Reporter here...
I talked to an old-timer the other day who actually prefers skiing in the rain - soft snow, no crowds, guaranteed temps above freezing. I thought that was awesome.

Here's my report from this morning:
"10:20am update: Light rain has started up again, but Ski Patrol reports that trails are skiing well and all scheduled lifts are running (C'mon, a little rain won't melt you. Unless you're a Gremlin, I guess. But I doubt you're a Gremlin).


It looks like the soft snow and mild temps we've seen the last few days will stick around today, but the forecast shows the sun will be hidden behind rain clouds. BUT, my radar-watching tells me we are in a break in the storm and the heavy precipitation will hold off for a while. Temps are already in the upper 30s at the summit at 6:30am, so it looks like lifts will run as scheduled today (check back here on the snow report for updates, just in case). Ski Patrol is out assessing trails as we speak, and they report that, with the mild temps, 82 trails are already loosening up and should be good to go."

I sleep better at night when we report honestly.

 

[kingslug]

" People travel hundreds of miles....to ski frozen granular"

W. Miller

 

[bill-now]

From the Sugarbush Snow Report... "Sunday, March 9th 9:10 a.m. Advice nugget of the day: Sleep in." It doesn't get more honest than that.

 

[thetrailboss]

Jay has closed for today. Read what I have highlighted:

We are closing down operations today. We'll be back up and running tomorrow.

So the snow returned right on cue but brought with it some wind. Some wind feels like an understatement but you get the intent. We expect delays early and often this morning but it's still too early to find out which/when (I actually pumped the old clock ahead two hours). Make sure to check back right here and we'll post information as it becomes available.

2-3" during the overnight period but it fell directly on top of a fair bit of slop (this being an aggregate of rain, freezing rain, ice, snow and stuff that'd best be described as debris). Forecasters are calling for more snow today-on order of an additional 3-6" and possibly more-so today will be in the rear-view mirror as early as, well, tonight. Next week looks good with several shots at natural snow and winter temps.

Again, this is a snow report and snow reports are written by marketers and marketers are s'posed to get folks to the mountain. That being said, you may want to consider an extra cup of coffee and a second look at the Sunday papers. Just sayin.



Check back in the morning for some operational updates as we're expecting a bit of wind early.

 

[Greg]

Good on Jay and Sugarbush for that. Still, anyone that needed to read that to know yesterday was a crappy day to ski is not the sharpest tool in the shed...

 

[andyzee]

Good for them!