Too Steep & Narrow for Grooming

[riverc0il]

bear with me on this one as everyone knows my preference regarding groomed vs. non-groomed. but i got to wondering today, is their a point at which a trail is too steep or narrow for grooming? now i am not referring to a grooming machine's ability to groom a slope, but rather the negative after effects when a steep and narrow trail is groomed.

for an example, i am going to pick on my favorite mountain cannon, which often grooms two of the steepest runs on the mountain: avalanche and zoomer. much to my happiness and delight cannon only grooms the center of the trails and leaves the sides of the trails bumped. but the center of the trail that gets groomed gets scraped off very quickly. it makes for a rather unpleasant ski experience. as a former racer, i love carving up a big arc on a groomed hill (folks at the AZ burke gathering last year can atest to the grin on my face after taking off down the dippers :lol: ), so i am coming at this question from the perspective of someone that can also appreciate a ripping a set of huge arcs on excellent groomed snow. the links at cannon are another fantastic example of a steep and narrow pitch that gets nasty scrapped due to high traffic volume of skiers without the needed technique to get down the trail without side sliping the entire trail.

white heat comes to mind as well. another trail half bumped and half groomed. so many people without skill are out to prove themselves and ski a double diamond that the run is clear skied off and scraped within an hour or two of the place opening. i used to consider scraped trails a challenge, now they only register as annoying.

it seems there is an interesting meeting point at which a steep trail that is groomed and not very wide meets a reputation or a demographic of skiers that need to side slip the trail to get down at which the trail is made miserable by grooming.

on the flip side, that extra challenge should be available to a skier that favors groomed and is looking for a challenge and actually enjoys scraped down snow. having formerly been a racer, i can appreciate that need

but what says everyone else? do people actually enjoy sliding down trails that are scraped beyond belief and just plain nasty? often times, skiers will turn around and blame the ski areas, but the ski areas just say they are giving groomed skiers what they prefer. :blink: it seems like an interesting intersection of preferences, just curious what every one else though? seemed like a good topic to get some heated discussion going!

 

[NHpowderhound]

I'd like to give Wildcat's Top Cat and Lift Lion as examples. Both are fairly steep but not overwhelming. Both are almost narrow(T-Brook is narrow ). But niether recieves grooming . It takes a while for them to open and when there are periods of snow drought they will close. And thats fine with me.
It makes me want to uke: when i see a nice steep slope that was made for advanced and expert skiers tamed back. Leave ledges. Leave stumps. Leave doulble fallines. I dont mind that it may not be open.I understand. But when it is, at least I have something to challenge myself.
I'd rather have that trail melt out earlier in the spring to enjoy it's purity in the winter.
Grooming White heat is a joke. Same goes for White Nitro, ZoomerPauliesRocket & Can Am. If ya cant ski it then don't!
((*
*))NHPH

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Well, my preference is for steep, narrow and au natural. That being said, a day at Magic just ain't complete without a warm-up run ripping the fresh cordouroy on Taliban. During the week, it's generally still good late in the day, too.

Variety is a good thing. (I even rediscovered the "Joie de Cruzier" this season.)

 

[riverc0il]

oh for sure, variety is definitely a good thing. and with all the great steep expert terrain at magic i love to rave about, i also equally rave about how great the groomed runs are and how they never get scraped off. variety is a great thing and i was not trying to start a groomed vs. not groomed debate regarding what is better or preferences or what not. just looking at how certain trails that get groomed that are steep and narrow are often plain nasty regardless of whether you prefer groomed or not.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Ask anyone you meet on the lift if they prefer groomed or ungroomed and the overwhelming majority of men will say ungroomed. Then watch them ski away and a lot of them have an intermediate skill package or less; hence the terms gapers and posers. They can’t handle the truth and will get in trouble on trails where they don’t belong. I think that’s why many mountains are now taking the approach of grooming one side while letting the other get bumped up.

The trail at Whiteface where the World Cup mogul competition is held is called Wilderness. It has an average pitch of about 30 degrees. The moguls are on skier’s left, skiers right is groomed. Some take one look and stay on the right. Some try left for a while and bale. A few can stay the course. Thing is it gives options and from a safety stand point I can see where that is a good idea.

 

[awf170]

I'd like to give Wildcat's Top Cat and Lift Lion as examples.

they make snow on it now, kinda good and bad IMO, best the bumps harder and nastier but makes for some sick spring skiing(april 19 not one rock or bear spot, just nice soft corn moguls (just noticed you were talkin about the quad line 2.... they just make snow on the gondi line)

 

[GloryHole]

white heat comes to mind as well. another trail half bumped and half groomed. so many people without skill are out to prove themselves and ski a double diamond that the run is clear skied off and scraped within an hour or two of the place opening.

Do the "skilled" skiers(such as yourself ) contribute at all to this phenomenon, or is it just the great unwashed people without skill out to prove themselves that cause this? :blink: Or is perhaps what comes with the territory of skiing the 'ICE COAST'

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

oh for sure, variety is definitely a good thing. and with all the great steep expert terrain at magic i love to rave about, i also equally rave about how great the groomed runs are and how they never get scraped off. variety is a great thing and i was not trying to start a groomed vs. not groomed debate regarding what is better or preferences or what not. just looking at how certain trails that get groomed that are steep and narrow are often plain nasty regardless of whether you prefer groomed or not.

I guess I'm drawing a blank on a steep and narrow trail that gets groomed. Aside from the "half & half" (e.g. White Hype), I can't think of any. (I know, I have to get out more, especially on weekends )

 

[NHpowderhound]

STEEP and NARROW are relative to the skier. What I think is steep may seem like a cakewalk for riverc0il. And what riv thinks is narrow I may think is a 4 lane highway. Whitheat,White Nitro and Can Am ar anything but narrow in my opinion. But the are examples of expert terrain that is modified to accomidate skiers and riders who wouldnt normally be able to negotiate those particular runs without grooming.
((*
*))NHPH

 

[riverc0il]

white heat comes to mind as well. another trail half bumped and half groomed. so many people without skill are out to prove themselves and ski a double diamond that the run is clear skied off and scraped within an hour or two of the place opening.

Do the "skilled" skiers(such as yourself ) contribute at all to this phenomenon, or is it just the great unwashed people without skill out to prove themselves that cause this? :blink: Or is perhaps what comes with the territory of skiing the 'ICE COAST'

hey, i was without skill looking to prove myself on a double black diamond at one point. i think every skier is at one point. that is irrelevent. perhaps my characterization was inappropriate; however, the point stands that certain trails get scrapped by side slipping and sliding. enough traffic from any level of skier will diminish conditions eventually, but generally speaking expert level skiers carve and turn rather than slide and scrape down the mountain, usually resulting in less wear and trail of the snow conditions.

your last statement merits consideration in that these conditions are self evident just by virtue or location. i generally don't find much ice and nastiness away from groomed steeps...

regarding steep and narrow, it really is relative. i would include a trail like white heat in this type of classification. narrow as in not wide enough to handle the amount of traffic the trail receives. the trail isn't wide enough to handle the volume of skiers. perhaps that is the main problem? when ski areas succed in being profitable by drawing in lots of skiers, they must either widen the trails or face progressively deterorating conditions as the pitch and challenge increases?

 

[awf170]

the trail isn't wide enough to handle the volume of skiers. perhaps that is the main problem? when ski areas succed in being profitable by drawing in lots of skiers, they must either widen the trails or face progressively deterorating conditions as the pitch and challenge increases?

Yes but making it wider makes it more likely to get icy because of wind

white hear is obviously wide... it widest longest steepest trail in the east :wink: awsome ASC marketing...

 

[deadheadskier]

I can't stand how Stowe half grooms liftline and National. They should be completely bumped, but as I said in another post, they partially groom them so people can will themselves down it and lay claim to having skied to of the infamous Front Four trails.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

How about some examples of Groomed, Steep and Narrow?

Sorcerer at Magic is realtively Narrow. (not like it was Pre-snowmaking), but it isn't always groomed.

America at Saddleback is NARROW (though thankfully, not very steep. You'd have trouble grooming that with a Ski Doo.

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

I can't stand how Stowe half grooms liftline and National. They should be completely bumped, but as I said in another post, they partially groom them so people can will themselves down it and lay claim to having skied to of the infamous Front Four trails.

There is allways "The Goat"
Thank God they cant even get a winch cat down it....i better shut up b4 they get any ideas.

 

[JimG.]

There is allways "The Goat"
Thank God they cant even get a winch cat down it....i better shut up b4 they get any ideas.

"Starr" too; the headwall on top is genuinely steep and I've never seen that trail groomed.

 

[GloryHole]

generally speaking expert level skiers carve and turn rather than slide and scrape down the mountain, usually resulting in less wear and trail of the snow conditions.

How does this explain why race courses "ice up" so quickly? I would be of the opinion that it is just traffic combined with the Eastern climate/snow that causes this - ability has little to do with it.

 

[riverc0il]

race courses scrape up because the same skiers are taking the same turns one after another. after 200 skiers have taken the same exact turn in the same exact place, of course that turn is going to get scraped down. also, the trail is pre-sideslipped before races to scrape off any loose snow which means race courses are predisposed to be scraped before a single racer has taken a rull. professional race courses actually intentionally ice downhill courses, fwiw.

i submit a simple question regarding ability having little to do with scraped conditions as gloryhole suggests (what a handle, huh!?): two groups of 10 skiers ski down a steep pitch following the same line. group A plants their skis sideways and slides/scrapes down the entire trail and group B makes lots of carved turns that do not kick up much snow. which group leaves better conditions in their wake? i am not trying to say if you're not expert you ruin the trails! just saying that folks that side slip/slide down a trail cause conditions to deteriorate.

regarding eastern climate/snow... that is a constant factor for all skiers, not a variable so i fail to see how that enters into the equation of whether or not different leveled skiers deteriorate trails at different rates.

 

[awf170]

race courses scrape up because the same skiers are taking the same turns one after another. after 200 skiers have taken the same exact turn in the same exact place, of course that turn is going to get scraped down. also, the trail is pre-sideslipped before races to scrape off any loose snow which means race courses are predisposed to be scraped before a single racer has taken a rull. professional race courses actually intentionally ice downhill courses, fwiw.

i submit a simple question regarding ability having little to do with scraped conditions as gloryhole suggests (what a handle, huh!?): two groups of 10 skiers ski down a steep pitch following the same line. group A plants their skis sideways and slides/scrapes down the entire trail and group B makes lots of carved turns that do not kick up much snow. which group leaves better conditions in their wake? i am not trying to say if you're not expert you ruin the trails! just saying that folks that side slip/slide down a trail cause conditions to deteriorate.

regarding eastern climate/snow... that is a constant factor for all skiers, not a variable so i fail to see how that enters into the equation of whether or not different leveled skiers deteriorate trails at different rates.

see i was going to respond to his question but then i was like why i would i give some crappy probably confusing explanation when steve will give a way better one. And i was right

 

[GloryHole]

I propose that ice is formed by the repeated compression of the snow surface, not by "scraping" -
The energy of the compression creates a small amount of heat which thaws the snow crystals briefly. Which immediately re-freeze and fuse in the process. Repeat ove and over and over and you get: ice. So in conclusion, it is just a factor of "traffic", not ability.

(what a handle, huh!?):

Pot calling the kettle black? Yours is rather... odd. :wink:

 

[Brettski]

You mean your not suppose to ski the fall line down the side of a trail that's only about 3 feet wide?

I've been doing it all wrong now for all these years...cause that's where all the snow is...

Ice Coast...I like it...I get a sticker for my Box...got my AlpineZone sticker up there already..so wave hi or honk if you see us

Hellgate (or any of the front "cliff" trails at hunta) is a perfect example...and they ain't steep

We need an emoticon that show a beginner sliding their "turns" down the middle of the trails...

And what ever their beef is...my kids have been skiing for, what, 3 years now, and have had heavy doses of lessons.

They all know how to edge their turns...now take people who have 20 year old equiptment (Hey I still got my stuff still) but are sliding tail all over..straight down the middle, and have this horrofied look on their face....becuase you know that they know they can't stop...

And I'm not even gonna go in to the beginner boarder thing...no, I have nothing against boarders...please don't start that debate...