Too Steep & Narrow for Grooming

[Brettski]

I propose that ice is formed by the repeated compression of the snow surface, not by "scraping" -
The energy of the compression creates a small amount of heat which thaws the snow crystals briefly. Which immediately re-freeze and fuse in the process.

You're not serious right. So I guess all of the snow on the 2 sides of the trails are made by mini underground snow guns...

Are you a guy or a gal?

 

[awf170]

I propose that ice is formed by the repeated compression of the snow surface, not by "scraping" -
The energy of the compression creates a small amount of heat which thaws the snow crystals briefly. Which immediately re-freeze and fuse in the process.

You're not serious right. So I guess all of the snow on the 2 sides of the trails are made by mini underground snow guns...

Are you a guy or a gal?

Know what i think, ICE is caused by rain and then cold. I think your confusing ice and hardpack :wink:

I have done this too many times, but it still annoys me calling hardpack ice. I even noticed i did it back a few posts ago. For future reference for me and everyone else-this is ice :wink:

(feline at wildcat)

 

[GloryHole]

So if it does not rain, there will never be ice on trails? I stand by my analysis, as I know it is right. If you really give it some thought, you will agree.
http://www.turns-all-year.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=ha1;action=display;num=1088636414

 

[JimG.]

Ice is just part of eastern skiing...however it gets there (and I believe it is a mix of snow being scraped and climate impacting the snow) doesn't matter to me.

While I prefer trails that are never groomed, it's a fact of modern skiing life. I find that grooming does help make trails icier than ungroomed runs. That's why there is a whole culture of eastern skiers who ski from opening until 11am and then quit.

Seems like a waste to me, but we're not going to eliminate these folks or groomers or the novices who wind up scraping snow off of runs they can't ski. So we have to deal with ice.

I don't mind icy conditions. It's the true measure of a real skier. And ice isn't hardpack or hardened snow...it's that shiny blue stuff that's hard as a rock. I rarely see alot of it.

When I do, I aim for it because if you can carve on that, you can carve on anything.

 

[GloryHole]

That picture is not the sort of "ice" we are discussing. You know the type. The patches which you encounter when flying around a corner which cause a brief spike in your pulse rate as you try to regain the feeling of "being in control". This is not "hardpack". This is ICE.
And how does "scraping" cause ice? If you are just "scraping snow, sooner or later you would be down to the dirt. Which proves my theorem that this sort of ice is caused by repeated compression of the surface, causing the crystals to bond.

It's the true measure of a real skier.

I would contest that. There are plenty of "real skiers" in the California Sierra that have never seen anything resembling ice. Far better and more daring skiers than most anyone in the NorthEast.

 

[awf170]

I would contest that. There are plenty of "real skiers" in the California Sierra that have never seen anything resembling ice. Far better and more daring skiers than most anyone in the NorthEast.

So if your theory causes ice then how come the sierra's dont have ice(I dont know if they do or not, im just taking your word)

 

[JimG.]

It's the true measure of a real skier.

I would contest that. There are plenty of "real skiers" in the California Sierra that have never seen anything resembling ice. Far better and more daring skiers than most anyone in the NorthEast.

Disagreement is OK; I've seen many westerners who are awesome skiers come east and absolutely flail on icy trails until they get used to it. I've been out west when an entire mountain clears out because of one patch of ice on one run...too icy! Of course, the real skiers adapt and soon carve the crap out of ice.

It's the same going the other way; I've seen easterners who are awesome skiers go out west and absolutely flail when skiing 18" of powder the first time. Too aggressive a stance, too much edge, lots of caught edges and facial christies. The real skiers adapt and soon ski powder like pros.

As for daring, there are plenty of daring skiers in the east...where do you think the ones out west came from :lol: ? Spend a day in the woods or at tower 5 at MRG and tell me there isn't any daring there.

That's not to say there aren't any daring western bred skiers or real western skiers. There are plenty from both east and west.

My main point is that if conditions make or break a skier, that's not a real skier.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

That picture is not the sort of "ice" we are discussing. You know the type. The patches which you encounter when flying around a corner which cause a brief spike in your pulse rate as you try to regain the feeling of "being in control". This is not "hardpack". This is ICE.
And how does "scraping" cause ice? If you are just "scraping snow, sooner or later you would be down to the dirt. Which proves my theorem that this sort of ice is caused by repeated compression of the surface, causing the crystals to bond.

It's the true measure of a real skier.

I would contest that. There are plenty of "real skiers" in the California Sierra that have never seen anything resembling ice. Far better and more daring skiers than most anyone in the NorthEast.

There are, in my experience, two distinctly different kinds of ice. One kind, as illustrated in the picture above, is the result of some sort of sub-surface spring or other upwelling of water. That is quite literally the kind of ice that you could skate on in the local rink. Thankfully, this type of ice is pretty rare and is only seen in small patches on a given trail.


The other kind, and the one that is FAR more prevalent, is the result of constant skier compaction and scraping of man-made snow. Man-made snow has a MUCH higher water content and density than natural. In the East, with its high skier densities, high humidity, high winds and variable temperatures, this is a recipe for that man-made to quickly transform into a frozen layer of semi-snow, semi-ice, mostly garbage. It's fantastic in the spring when it's density prevents it from melting and enables skiing into May or June. But it's pretty lousy in mid-winter when the top layer that the groomers have worked into shape is scraped off by 10:30 in high traffic spots. This is the essense of why many people are so opposed to wide trails and high-capacity lifts. Wide trails in the East require snowmaking just to open (they don't hold snow well) and high-capacity lifts pour skiers back onto the trails so quickly that they are skied off before noon.

You are therefore both right. The compression, or sometimes the weather conditions, will turn the man-made sludge into "ice". Skier traffic will reveal this "ice" by scraping off the top layers that the groomers have worked into shape overnight.

Next time you're at Sugarbush, test the theory out by using two different routes to get from the top of the Super Bravo down to the Heaven's Gate triple. Take Downspout on your first run, along with 50,000 of your closest friends. Then ski Domino on the following run (assuming an average snow year). The different will be noticed immediately.

 

[JimG.]

That picture is not the sort of "ice" we are discussing. You know the type. The patches which you encounter when flying around a corner which cause a brief spike in your pulse rate as you try to regain the feeling of "being in control". This is not "hardpack". This is ICE.
And how does "scraping" cause ice? If you are just "scraping snow, sooner or later you would be down to the dirt. Which proves my theorem that this sort of ice is caused by repeated compression of the surface, causing the crystals to bond.

I think I agreed with the first part of this...ice is not hardpack, ice is that shiny blue stuff that's as hard as a rock. Actually, sometimes it's green, sometimes yellow/brown, and sometimes clear.

Scraping is a bad choice of words. Skiers who sideslip alot push down on and compress the snow more than skiers who carve. So I guess we agree on the issue of compression. Alot of that is climate related.

 

[Brettski]

So what are we saying, that all the build up of snow on the sides of trails is not made from people sliding though their turns or snowplowing straight down the middle of a steep trail?

I like my Ice in a tall glass with a margarita..no salt...

 

[dmc]

True ski racers like a hardpack(icey) course...

Because they know how to carve...

 

[Tin Woodsman]

True ski racers like a hardpack(icey) course...

Because they know how to carve...

Untrue. They like it, b/c it makes them go fast and it's the fairest way to have a race. Otherwise, the ruts in softer snow would make it unfair for later starting competitors.

 

[dmc]

True ski racers like a hardpack(icey) course...

Because they know how to carve...

Untrue. They like it, b/c it makes them go fast and it's the fairest way to have a race. Otherwise, the ruts in softer snow would make it unfair for later starting competitors.

WTF????
So your saying ski racers dont like ice...?
Cause it sounds like you said they do...
Which agrees with what I said... And the reason they can handle it is becuase they know how to carve..

Right?

 

[JimG.]

True ski racers like a hardpack(icey) course...

Because they know how to carve...

Untrue. They like it, b/c it makes them go fast and it's the fairest way to have a race. Otherwise, the ruts in softer snow would make it unfair for later starting competitors.

They go fast because they know how to carve a turn; skidding a turn slows you down.

Yes, icy courses run faster. Yes, many events deliberately ice courses down, especially downhill courses.

But I've yet to see an event cancelled because of soft snow. I've seen them cancelled because of bad weather, but soft snow just means the first few runners have an advantage. That's the luck of the draw.

 

[riverc0il]

Pot calling the kettle black? Yours is rather... odd.

at least it isn't a sexual innuendo :roll:

 

[Tin Woodsman]

WTF????
So your saying ski racers dont like ice...?
Cause it sounds like you said they do...
Which agrees with what I said... And the reason they can handle it is becuase they know how to carve..

Right?

You read the part in my post where I said, "They like it b/c..." right? That generally means I'm saying they like it. Is there some confusion there on your part? Seems so. But yet I digress.

What I was disagreeing with was the notion that ski racers like ice b/c they can carve a turn on it. Ski racers can carve a turn on just about anything.

And I've seen and heard of all manner of courses being iced down, not just DH ones.

 

[JimG.]

What I was disagreeing with was the notion that ski racers like ice b/c they can carve a turn on it. Ski racers can carve a turn on just about anything.

And I've seen and heard of all manner of courses being iced down, not just DH ones.

I kind of got lost in the semantics too, but now I see your point.

Right about icing down race courses too...but it is especially prevalent on downhill courses.

 

[dmc]

What I was disagreeing with was the notion that ski racers like ice b/c they can carve a turn on it. Ski racers can carve a turn on just about anything.

And I've seen and heard of all manner of courses being iced down, not just DH ones.

I kind of got lost in the semantics too, but now I see your point.

Right about icing down race courses too...but it is especially prevalent on downhill courses.

I'm still lost in the semantics...
I think we said the same thing..

 

[JimG.]

I'm still lost in the semantics...
I think we said the same thing..

Kind of...Tin said that racers like ice because it makes them go faster.

You said they like ice because they carve well on it and go fast.

I said they go fast because they carve instead of skidding, and the ice just makes them faster.

I still prefer my ice in a nice, tall cocktail. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[ctenidae]

I still prefer my ice in a nice, tall cocktail. I think we can all agree on that.

Absolutely. Though a few cubes in a rocks glass with a nice bourbon has a lot going for it, too.

On topic, there is probably a direct relationship between the number of cocktails consumed and the pitch of a trail a groomer will try to drive up...