Too Steep & Narrow for Grooming

[JimG.]

On topic, there is probably a direct relationship between the number of cocktails consumed and the pitch of a trail a groomer will try to drive up...

Or go DOWN !

 

[smootharc]

Hey, Riv....She (I think she's a she) used....

Gloryhole: Pot calling the kettle black? Yours is rather... odd.

at least it isn't a sexual innuendo :roll:

....the "pot callling the kettle black" line on me in my "How to tell a friend he sucks" thread, insinuating my Avatar ski photo form was not up to snuff. Hurt my feelings, it did.... :wink:

New thread....how to tell myself I suck....after only 40 years of sliding on snow ! I need a huge Vodka Tonic, three prozac's, a box of kleenex, and a therapist's leather sofa....pronto !

So, being the weenie I am, I've toggled my Avatar over to a summer one to avoid further mockery, and additional erosion of my fragile mental state and male ego. All you Super Bike riders out there....let me have it ! I must be doing something wrong....besides going 30 miles over the speed limit and the wheelie I'm about to huck....

:dunce:

 

[deadheadskier]

Absolutely. Though a few cubes in a rocks glass with a nice bourbon has a lot going for it, too.

Blasphemy!!!

Thou shall not bruise the bourbon with ice!

There's two schools of thought to drinking bourbon. Some insist that adding a bit of water or ice to it brings out more flavor. I insist that it ruins the complexity as it lightens the color.

Oddly a friend of mine's father's job was a 'taster' for Knob Creek. He claimed that though he and the other 'tasters', tasted the product with water - all of them drank it Neat when enjoying it on their own. The primary reason being is that most people don't like bourbon straight because of the burn and need water to soften it.

Speaking of which, its after 5.....

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

True ski racers like a hardpack(icey) course...

Because they know how to carve...

Untrue. They like it, b/c it makes them go fast and it's the fairest way to have a race. Otherwise, the ruts in softer snow would make it unfair for later starting competitors.

hummm....with softer snow on course sure ruts do build up, But 99% of the time the ruts are knocked down by the race crew/coaches.
The real prob with soft snow is one can Hook a gate if they get out of the "Grove".
another scarry thing to look out for is "Holes Punched" in the the snow at the gate. the brute force of an "Elete" skier can compress the snow at the apex of the turn.....and that will throw a less experenced skier off line and ruin thier timeing...can you say "High Side"?

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

I propose that ice is formed by the repeated compression of the snow surface, not by "scraping" -
The energy of the compression creates a small amount of heat which thaws the snow crystals briefly. Which immediately re-freeze and fuse in the process. Repeat ove and over and over and you get: ice. So in conclusion, it is just a factor of "traffic", not ability.

(what a handle, huh!?):

Pot calling the kettle black? Yours is rather... odd. :wink:

"I propose that ice is formed by the repeated compression of the snow surface, not by "scraping" -
The energy of the compression creates a small amount of heat which thaws the snow crystals briefly. Which immediately re-freeze and fuse in the process. Repeat ove and over and over and you get: ice. So in conclusion, it is just a factor of "traffic", not ability."

Substitute the word "Friction" 4 the word "Compression" and you will almost have it....

 

[Vano]

I agree with the statement that ski racers prever extremely hard surfaces bordering on icy.

I have seen in person Italian, US, Austrian and Swiss Olympic race teams prepare the trails for racing. They repeatedly slide sideways down the slope to get any loose snow off the surface. Sometimes this process takes 3 to 4 hours and on days when it is snowing heavily the teams take turns going out on the trail and sliding sideways over and over again 6 hours a day. All this to keep the new, softer, less stable, slower snow off the race course. The end result is an extremely hard surface that is so packed down, so smooth that us average skiers would probably call it ICY. I have tried a number of times to ski the same practice course after the pro racers were done for the day and I found it nearly impossible to go any faster than half their speed.

Amazing skill and balance combined with equipment that is hand tuned and sharpened to be razor sharp enables these guys to ski this stuff and generate 3 Gs of lateral acceleration while do it.

 

[bvibert]

Welcome to the forum Vano, we hope to see more of you around.

 

[eatskisleep]

I'd like to give Wildcat's Top Cat and Lift Lion as examples. Both are fairly steep but not overwhelming. Both are almost narrow(T-Brook is narrow ). But niether recieves grooming . It takes a while for them to open and when there are periods of snow drought they will close. And thats fine with me.
It makes me want to uke: when i see a nice steep slope that was made for advanced and expert skiers tamed back. Leave ledges. Leave stumps. Leave doulble fallines. I dont mind that it may not be open.I understand. But when it is, at least I have something to challenge myself.
I'd rather have that trail melt out earlier in the spring to enjoy it's purity in the winter.
Grooming White heat is a joke. Same goes for White Nitro, ZoomerPauliesRocket & Can Am. If ya cant ski it then don't!
((*
*))NHPH

mmmm I have to agree with everything you just said. Mainly the Wildcat stuff though. Great mountain IMHO.

 

[ChileMass]

Did anybody mention Upper Darby at Gore? I haven't been there in a long time, but back in the day that was just a twisted cliff which no groomer could ever get up or down. That's a sick trail.....

And on the topic of bourbon - my personal recipe goes like this: fill rocks glass with ice, 3 fingers of Wild Turkey 101* with 2 fingers of water. Stir with other finger. Freshen as needed.

 

[Birdman829]

I dunno about this. While I do enjoy "natural" steep terrain. Lift Line at Wildcat, Bubblecuffer at Sugarloaf, etc. I do enjoy a real steep groomer too so I'm torn on this issue.

 

[Birdman829]

I agree with the statement that ski racers prever extremely hard surfaces bordering on icy.

I have seen in person Italian, US, Austrian and Swiss Olympic race teams prepare the trails for racing. They repeatedly slide sideways down the slope to get any loose snow off the surface. Sometimes this process takes 3 to 4 hours and on days when it is snowing heavily the teams take turns going out on the trail and sliding sideways over and over again 6 hours a day. All this to keep the new, softer, less stable, slower snow off the race course. The end result is an extremely hard surface that is so packed down, so smooth that us average skiers would probably call it ICY. I have tried a number of times to ski the same practice course after the pro racers were done for the day and I found it nearly impossible to go any faster than half their speed.

Amazing skill and balance combined with equipment that is hand tuned and sharpened to be razor sharp enables these guys to ski this stuff and generate 3 Gs of lateral acceleration while do it.

Some places will occasionally hose down the course so that it firms up even more (especially for downhills). This happens to Narrow Guage at Sugarloaf quite often (its the only eastern trail rated for all 4 events) and it is pretty much unskiable for your average skier when it is in racing shape.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Birdman, did you get your name from the cartoon of same name? That one and Space Ghost were great in a campy sort of way.

 

[Marc]

The trail at Whiteface where the World Cup mogul competition is held is called Wilderness. It has an average pitch of about 30 degrees. The moguls are on skier’s left, skiers right is groomed. Some take one look and stay on the right. Some try left for a while and bale.

So they wrap themselves in hay string and contort into a box shape?

Sorry, I have a sense of humor as dry as winter air in a wood stove heated house.

Without taking the time to responsibly read everyone's opinion on this matter posted thus far I'm going to offer my inexperienced and mostly worthless thoughts on the matter;

It seems to me, unless the trail is really, really wide, for example, True Grit at Waterville, grooming half or part of the trail will attract all the intermediates like me that have no problem on smooth steeps. Half bumps will be further attraction for those looking to learn bumps but still want the option to abandon when necessary. The groomed side will always get scraped off.

I say all or none. Plus if I have no place to abandon, then it forces me to pick my way down the moguls... which is probably a good thing.

 

[takeahike46er]

Did anybody mention Upper Darby at Gore? I haven't been there in a long time, but back in the day that was just a twisted cliff which no groomer could ever get up or down. That's a sick trail.....

I don't think that trail has ever seen a groomer. Great trail... very steep, extremely narrow, and no snowmaking.

 

[Birdman829]

Sorry, I have a sense of humor as dry as winter air in a wood stove heated house.

That's why we put a pot of water on top of our wood stove and run a dehumidifier

And to whoever asked if I got my name from the cartoon. Sort of. I did enjoy watching it when I was little and it's a cool name, plus my last name is Bird so it works on 2 levels.

 

[Npage148]

Did anybody mention Upper Darby at Gore? I haven't been there in a long time, but back in the day that was just a twisted cliff which no groomer could ever get up or down. That's a sick trail.....

I don't think that trail has ever seen a groomer. Great trail... very steep, extremely narrow, and no snowmaking.

my favorite gore trail

 

[Vano]

Welcome to the forum Vano, we hope to see more of you around.

Thanks for the welcome. I have been looking for a community like this for a while now. Its good to have people that are equally crazy about skiing to talk to.

Is there a place on the message boards where I can plan weekend or day trips with others on the forum?

 

[riverc0il]

welcome Vano. try the Trips & Events Forum.

 

[GrizzlyFD]

There is one crucial fact that is missing in regard to ice/hardpack...the groomers...

The groomers come out at night after the snow has warmed up and roll there massive weight (5-10 tons) up and down the slopes compressing and melting the warm snow underneath. Sure they leave a little "groomed" surface on top, but the majority of what they do is melt and subsequently during the night refreeze the snow. This process over and over again creates this "black," "clear," or "blue" or whatever you want to call it ice.

Think about the trails that don't get groomed...if they warm up during the day and then freeze at night, only the top crust is frozen the next morning...not underneath.

So ice does not directly come from poor skiers (and snowboarders :lol: ) snowplowing down the hill...at least not directly. So I say "no more grooming...no more ice :beer: "

Matt

 

[kcyanks1]

Did anybody mention Upper Darby at Gore? I haven't been there in a long time, but back in the day that was just a twisted cliff which no groomer could ever get up or down. That's a sick trail.....

I don't think that trail has ever seen a groomer. Great trail... very steep, extremely narrow, and no snowmaking.

Officially I think Upper Darby does have snowmaking (i.e., the pipes are there, perhaps because it's right near Cloud for most of the run, and then Open Pit at the way bottom), though you are right that it has never had it. The steep part is extremely short. Very rarely open, and there have probably been seasons when it hasn't even opened. Fun trail though despite being short.