USSA Proposes World Cup At Killington

[doublediamond]

This is totally false. Low-e guns are completely ineffective in marginal temps.

They're "ineffective" because they put out so little per gun. You double or more up, you match the output of other guns. 2 of these SnowLogics match one modern HKD tower while using less air. 2 modern HKD towers matches the K3000 or Ratnik Snow Giant II while using less air.

If you're so smart, you tell me the flow characteristics of the SnowLogic 4-step ground gun with an 8 cfm nucleating nozzle.

Look at Loon. 100% low-E snowguns for early season snowmaking. They're kicking a lot of butt. They more or less doubled their hydrants with their snowmaking upgrades a couple years ago.

Look at Wildcat. 100% low-E guns on Lynx. They were the first to have a 2000 vertical ft trail. About half of their guns on Lynx are these SnowLogics.

Look at Sunday River. 100% low-E guns on T2. They match or beat Killington. 30-ft hydrant spacing just like Killington up around the Ridge Triple.

The only time they are "ineffective" is if it's over 28F WB. In that case no one anywhere in New England will be making snow because these air-hogs have just gotten far too expensive with high energy costs these days.

The new Ratnik ground guns they got can go up to 31F WB, with an air-water ratio of only about 14:1 at that temperature. Here's the flow curves for the Ratnik Snow Giant II. The Baby Snow Giant X-2 which is what Killington has, is "40% or more efficient."

 

[doublediamond]

Well, put this to the BS test....

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

Wow. You know nothing about grooming. No snowmaking trail in New England needs 5-ft of man made to get the groomer over it. You're nuts. They also don't groom race trails at this calibre flat. They leave every little bump in the hill up on the skiing surface. You really only need about 18".

And the "Snow Control" visit the week before isn't just to see if they have enough snow. They will look at the weather and the ability to make snow. Killington can blast early season snowmaking VERY fast.

EPIC FAIL!

Ahahaha.

 

[Highway Star]

They're "ineffective" because they put out so little per gun. You double or more up, you match the output of other guns. 2 of these SnowLogics match one modern HKD tower while using less air. 2 modern HKD towers matches the K3000 or Ratnik Snow Giant II while using less air.

If you're so smart, you tell me the flow characteristics of the SnowLogic 4-step ground gun with an 8 cfm nucleating nozzle.

Look at Loon. 100% low-E snowguns for early season snowmaking. They're kicking a lot of butt. They more or less doubled their hydrants with their snowmaking upgrades a couple years ago.

Look at Wildcat. 100% low-E guns on Lynx. They were the first to have a 2000 vertical ft trail. About half of their guns on Lynx are these SnowLogics.

Look at Sunday River. 100% low-E guns on T2. They match or beat Killington. 30-ft hydrant spacing just like Killington up around the Ridge Triple.

The only time they are "ineffective" is if it's over 28F WB. In that case no one anywhere in New England will be making snow because these air-hogs have just gotten far too expensive with high energy costs these days.

The new Ratnik ground guns they got can go up to 31F WB, with an air-water ratio of only about 14:1 at that temperature. Here's the flow curves for the Ratnik Snow Giant II. The Baby Snow Giant X-2 which is what Killington has, is "40% or more efficient."

Lol, what? I bet most of the places you cite are swaping out snowguns to high-e types in marginal temps. You're falling for ski area enviro-marketing BS. At 28f wet bulb, low-e guns make almost no snow. Nobody is putting a snowgun every 5 feet. Killington uses their K3000's and ratnicks ALL THE TIME IN MARGINAL TEMPS BECAUSE THEY ARE FAR MORE EFFECTIVE. PERIOD.

YOU'RE WRONG. STOP POSTING MISINFORMATION. YOU CAN'T OVERCOME PHYSICS.

 

[Highway Star]

Wow. You know nothing about grooming. No snowmaking trail in New England needs 5-ft of man made to get the groomer over it. You're nuts. They also don't groom race trails at this calibre flat. They leave every little bump in the hill up on the skiing surface. You really only need about 18".

And the "Snow Control" visit the week before isn't just to see if they have enough snow. They will look at the weather and the ability to make snow. Killington can blast early season snowmaking VERY fast.

Ahahaha.

Unless the FIS is run by morons (which is quite possible, look at 35m GS skis), they will not do this at Killington once they look at their history.

Most black and double black diamond trails at Killington get about 5 feet of snow on them before they are groomed out. They have plenty of rocks and deep waterbars on them

 

[doublediamond]

At 28f wet bulb, low-e guns make almost no snow.

How did Loon and Wildcat or Killington open so early with 100% low-E guns?!?

Nobody is putting a snowgun every 5 feet.

I'm not saying Killington needs to do so. I'm saying they *can* while using *LESS* air than currently. These guns are $5k+ a pop.

YOU'RE WRONG. STOP POSTING MISINFORMATION. YOU CAN'T OVERCOME PHYSICS.[/B]

November 2 last year, early season snowmaking:

Yes, that isn't 28F WB. But the second stage is on full-bore.

EDIT: The low that day was 30F 80% Humidity in Rutland around 8 to 9 AM. WB of 28.7 This pic looks like that time frame of day. IDK at what elevation this pic was at, but for sake of argument let's say 3787' (3000' above KRUT). 3000 ÷ 1000 x -3.56 = -10.7

At the very best, the WB was around 18.0 WB.

So. If I'm so wrong, what can a SnowLogic 4-step gun with an 8-cfm nucleating nozzle put out at 28F WB? 26F WB? 24? Etc? Seriously, before you start using size 9000 font, prove to me I'm wrong.

 

[Highway Star]

How did Loon and Wildcat or Killington open so early with 100% low-E guns?!?



I'm not saying Killington needs to do so. I'm saying they *can* while using *LESS* air than currently. These guns are $5k+ a pop.



November 2 last year, early season snowmaking:

Yes, that isn't 28F WB. But the second stage is on full-bore.

So. If I'm so wrong, what can a SnowLogic 4-step gun with an 8-cfm nucleating nozzle put out at 28F WB? 26F WB? 24? Etc? Seriously, before you start using size 9000 font, prove to me I'm wrong.

WOW!

That's super impressive, you know, how those there low-e guns are virtually painting the trail with snow. Like a really fierce paint sprayer! Wow!!!

I mean, seriously, it looks like they may have blown at least 4" of snow there. Wow, amazing! I can barely see the grass sticking through! Looks like nice solid, icy, base bulding snow too, my favorite.

Give them another TWO WEEKS, and they might actually get open on November 15th. Just like Loon!!!

http://www.loonmtn.com/media-center/latest-news/opening-day-at-loon

You sure proved me wrong!


:roll:

 

[doublediamond]

So when did they start making snow on that trail? It looks like East Fall to me. When did the trail open?!?

I repeat. Before you use size 9000 font, what the fuck is the flow characteristics of a SnowLogic gun?!?!?!?!

Seriously, you're funny.

Right from their presser:

"Our improvements in efficiency over the last several years give us a huge early-season snowmaking advantage over what we could do just a few years ago," said Ralph Lewis, Loon's director of skiing operations.

 

[Highway Star]

EDIT: The low that day was 30F 80% Humidity in Rutland around 8 to 9 AM. WB of 28.7 This pic looks like that time frame of day. IDK at what elevation this pic was at, but for sake of argument let's say 3787' (3000' above KRUT). 3000 ÷ 1000 x -3.56 = -10.7

At the very best, the WB was around 18.0 WB.

You're a fool.

 

[tumbler]

Why doesn't Whiteface push for a event? Did the course criteria change in the last 35 years that the Olympic run doesn't qualify?

 

[Highway Star]

Here's a nice shot of the snowlogic guns - note the large number OG K3000 snowguns running in the background:

 

[doublediamond]

Heck, even if they used Ratnik BSGX-2's, they'd still make snow in plenty of time:

31F WB ... 14:1

1 gun every 100 feet (standard) ... 250 cfm & 17.8 gpm ... 8500 cfm, 605 gpm

I'm highly confident Killington has more than an 8500 cfm air supply.

3400 x 250 = 19.5 acres

1.5 ft depth = 29.3 acre-ft of snow

1 acre-ft = 180,000 gallons (fairly wet man-made snow)

6.0 days non-stop at 31WB.

Now considering it will be colder than that, they'll put out more snow. And they can also make a lot more up top and push it down if need be.

Considering that the hydrants are closer than 100 ft on Supestar, they'll just make snow that faster.

They have more than enough ability to open Glades > base & Superstar by Thanksgiving except in the very warmest of winters, where no ski area will be making any snow at all.

If you don't like this math, use logic: replace filling out Snowdon with opening Superstar.

 

[doublediamond]

Why doesn't Whiteface push for a event? Did the course criteria change in the last 35 years that the Olympic run doesn't qualify?

Following the '80 Olympics they let the sides of the upper trails grow back.

 

[Newpylong]

Well, put this to the BS test....

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

Now, without getting into the details of the low-e snowguns, which are FAR less effective than old style snowguns at marginal temps..........what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Now what about this race? They are contractually commited to host it and if they can't pull it off, they stand to loose a pile of money. Hopefully they have insurance for this sort of thing. Lets compare senarios based on past winters - each of these happen about a third of the time:

Cold November: No problem, race happens, skiing for public likely on other trails off superstar chairs, plus K-1, NRT and Snowdon.

Average November: Race draws most snowmaking resouces for first half of November. Superstar might be open to public for first half of November. Snowmaking on K-1 / NRT starts once Superstar looks to be in good shape, public skiing only on NRT for Thanksgiving weekend (45 minute lift lines).

Warm, rainy November: Snowmaking focused entirely on Superstar, during small overnight windows of snowmaking, with several rain events melting snow. No public skiing on Thanksgiving weekend.

So, by my estimates they have a 2/3rd's chance of having either NO public skiing, or skiing on the NRT only for Thanksgiving - both of those are pretty bad senarios.

This is not even taking into account the chances of an ice storm, major rain storm, or 70F thaw the week of the event.

EPIC FAIL!

5 feet of snow? You're nuts - take it from someone who has to budget and create snowmaking plans, 2 feet is adequate and there will be no rocks. Cut your #s way down.

Also, you are patently wrong that Low-E guns are ineffective, you just need more. Every big player but K uses them early season, but they have density.

 

[doublediamond]

Here's a nice shot of the snowlogic guns - note the large number OG K3000 snowguns running in the background:

And what really is your point?

That was mid-season snowmaking at low temperatures. Apples and oranges. The efficiency bump from using low-E guns decreases with lower temperatures.

And we have to think about other things... What's the reasoning for using those guns? Was it windy that day? Did they not have enough SnowLogics? Were they making sure they're still proficient with that gun? Are those even K3000s? That's pretty blurry and hard to tell. Their Ratniks are on old K3000 tripods. Is it because K3000s and Ratniks have better throw (100ft vs. 50ft. for SnowLogic ground guns) as it makes the piles made during the day spread out more and better to ski on? Or did they just want to save groomer money?

And we don't even have to argue about the SnowLogics making enough snow anymore because:

You don't have to worry about that - we would add significant horsepower so we can expand as our guests have come to expect and still produce a world class race venue.

They're admitting they'll have rental compressors for making snow over on Superstar.

I don't think it's necessarily because they fucked up with the Dew Tour. I imagine it's the USSA's requirement to have the even there. USSA pays a lot to Copper to have early season training.

 

[Highway Star]

1.5 ft depth = 29.3 acre-ft of snow

You're on crack if you think they will hold an FIS event on a foot and a half of snow. Killington won't even open a trail with that kind of base depth. And that's not even accounting for snow melting.

 

[doublediamond]

You're on crack if you think they will hold an FIS event on a foot and a half of snow. Killington won't even open a trail with that kind of base depth. And that's not even accounting for snow melting.

Haha what?!? Killington routinely opens early season trails on far less than 18 inches.

Newpylong says he does this stuff for a living. I will take his word over yours.

 

[Highway Star]

5 feet of snow? You're nuts - take it from someone who has to budget and create snowmaking plans, 2 feet is adequate and there will be no rocks. Cut your #s way down.

Also, you are patently wrong that Low-E guns are ineffective, you just need more. Every big player but K uses them early season, but they have density.

You've obviously never hiked Killington in the summer. Most of their snowmaking trails are very rugged, and intended to have many feet of snow blown on them. Upper and Lower Superstar need about 5 feet of snow to be opened and groomed.

 

[deadheadskier]

Maybe, just maybe they do a little grading and trailwork in the problem areas to avoid having to make so much snow.

 

[doublediamond]

You've obviously never hiked Killington in the summer. Most of their snowmaking trails are very rugged, and intended to have many feet of snow blown on them. Upper and Lower Superstar need about 5 feet of snow to be opened and groomed.

You would not be able to get your mower up and down a trail needing 5 feet of snow to be open. Superstar isn't mowed by hand.

 

[doublediamond]

This is rugged?

The only thing they need to worry about is getting over the water bars.

This is the kind of trail you need 5-feet on: