Vail Purchases Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass

[sull1102]

I wonder if/whether Vail or Alterra will make a move on Peak soon given the buying sprees they've been on in the recent past??

You get the some solid New York and Boston as well as Philly day trip market resorts, as well as a bunch of mid west properties and overall the infrastructure is in decent shape........

As a Peak Passholder this worries me a little bit, but I miss the old 20-something pass to Snow and Stratton from 15/16 for $399 and maybe this would bring it back. Overall I think Alterra is more likely to buy if they really want to compete blow for blow with Vail. Might even see a little creativity if Peak leadership wanted to stay in the industry, but get back to basics with just a few smaller midwest hills to work with, i.e. when they were small enough to view reopening Crotched as a great opportunity which obviously it was.

If Alterra of Vail is really interested I think Attitash might be extremely an sexy piece of the puzzle unlocking the Mount Washington Valley and all that potential. Plus these companies like to swoop in and drop a large amount of cash on improvements quickly. There may be no mountain in the region more desperate for such a massive infusion of cash and see a solid return on investment.

 

[gregnye]

If Alterra of Vail is really interested I think Attitash might be extremely an sexy piece of the puzzle unlocking the Mount Washington Valley and all that potential. Plus these companies like to swoop in and drop a large amount of cash on improvements quickly. There may be no mountain in the region more desperate for such a massive infusion of cash and see a solid return on investment.

I'm not sure Attitash would be sold without Wildcat. But Wildcat isn't really that desirable to a large company, since no development can happen at the base. If Vail or Alterra bought out Peaks I would feel that Wildcat would be left without an owner, which would be sad.

 

[abc]

Who wants to claim credit for predicting the Vail purchase of Okemo and Sunapee the earliest?

Find the post of the first mention of Vail buying Okemo and Sunapee. We'll take their next prediction of which mountain Vail will buy a lot more seriously.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I bet vail moves to buy Wyndham next and maybe something even closer to New York

I have no idea if Wyndham is on the block, but Wyndham would be an exceptional fit for the Vail portfolio, and would also make a lot of sense geographically for Epic pass expansion.

 

[mbedle]

I have no idea if Wyndham is on the block, but Wyndham would be an exceptional fit for the Vail portfolio, and would also make a lot of sense geographically for Epic pass expansion.

Couldn't agree more on this one.

 

[Zermatt]

Not sure if this has already been covered in the previous 200+ posts, but what happens with all the people that paid $1,200+ for an Okemo pass already for 18/19 season?

Are they to be made whole in that people will be able to jump in for $900 to ski Okemo and get the rest of the Epic Pass mountains?

 

[mbedle]

Not sure if this has already been covered in the previous 200+ posts, but what happens with all the people that paid $1,200+ for an Okemo pass already for 18/19 season?

Are they to be made whole in that people will be able to jump in for $900 to ski Okemo and get the rest of the Epic Pass mountains?

EDIT Got it wrong !!!! Not looking good - this is from Vail's website: Vail Resorts will continue to honor previously sold 2018-19 season pass products for Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass.

The epic pass website states:I have purchased both an Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, or Stevens Pass season pass AND an Epic pass product. Can I get a refund?
Refunds of your Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, or Stevens Pass season pass purchases will be accepted following closure of the acquisitions. More information on process for receiving refunds on Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, or Stevens Pass products to be announced after closure of the acquisitions.

 

[MadPadraic]

Curious how Alterra reacts to this...

Altera now needs a compete in the 1) the Boston Day trip market 2) VT $$ condo resort market

-Just having 5 days at loon is a check in the L column for Alterra when compared to unlimited at Sunapee
-Just having 5 day access at either Stratton, Killington, or Sugarbush is another check in the L column for Alterra when compared to unlimited access at Okemo and Stowe

These are the type of skiiers the multi-pass mountains are after. Low volume weekend day trippers and seasonal condo owners who can be swayed to their product and have $$$ (and likely to venture out west)

What could happen
1) Unlimited days at Stratton. Highly likely IMHO. It is comparable to Okemo in a lot of ways and owned by Alterra
2) Greater access at Sugarbush, Killington, or Loon. They could do this by upping the days from say 5 to 15, opening up Pico, or even making it so that if you have a season pass at either Killington, Sugarbush, or NE you could get a steep discount on the IKON base. Probably won't happen, but who knows.
3) Make a Deal with WAWA. WAWA was on the MAX pass so they have been open to joining a pass deal in the past. Would compete well with Sunapee

I am also interested to see what happens to Jay. I haven't heard anything about it's sale. After such a large investment in the East by Vail would the addition of Jay bring a marginal benefit to out way the cost of another purchase in the east? Is that even relevant? They may just continue the arms race between them and Alterra and see every mountain as more potential passholders.

Regardless, I am excited to see how this plays out. This is great for consumers like me who are not tied to any one resort and make weekend trips from a major metro area. The addition of Okemo and Sunapee gives me more options to ski with more friends. It also puts pressure on Ikon to become more competetive So needless to say, im pretty psyched

We spent a huge amount of time trying to decide between Epic and Ikon this year, but ultimately decided on Cannon with plans to do a trip somewhere like St Anton or Pow Mou instead of a major Epic/Ikon destination. I'm not sure how Mt Sunapee unlimited would have changed this calculus: Sunapee and Okemo are notably inferior to Cannon, but $100 savings plus Stowe and Western mountains might be enough.

I'm really hoping, but not holding my breath, that Cannon will be added to one of these passes similar to Telluride and A-Basin.

On a related note, we should all write to the Powder Alliance and ask them to add Eastern areas to their network.

 

[Blowhard]

so I've read through 19 pages of people whining about SUVs, high pizza prices and speculation on what Vail will buy next.

I find it interesting that no one has really focused on the business side of this. Rob Katz, plain and simple was a very young & successful Private Equity guy at Apollo. He retired in his 30s, was a passionate skier and moved his family to Vail. Apollo bought Vail and Leon Black called him up asking him to run the place. The guy is a skier. All good. He has done a classic leveraged buildup of a business during a boom time. He runs an efficient ship and they do reinvest heavily in their mountains. Look at skiing Vail itself today vs 20 years ago, EVERY lift is high speed and some have started to be replaced with six packs. He's also done a great job in re-positioning Vail as a global ski destination (listen to all of the accents & Languages you hear on the lifts) that the US economy doesn't affect the prized possessions as much as the other areas in the portfolio.

Here's the issue, EVERY buildup of a portfolio of ski areas has ended badly in the next recession. There were never any that were the size of Vail today, but the old American Ski co, and others. I remember being on vacation at Killington with a friend who was a lender to K and commented on how there was zero $ in the current budget for CapX improvements during the dot com blow up.

I was looking hard for real estate in Stowe for the last 2+ years and all I saw was a lot of unrealistic owners thinking their properties were magically going to increase in value. There is a very strong economy that is supporting housing prices, but the new tax laws and the loss of deductibility on all of one's state income, property taxes has taken a bite out of the market. Think it's wrong? houses over $1million in my Northern Westchester town, are falling.

I ended up with a house on a lake outside of Ludlow allowing me to access the skyship 20 mins away and drive up to Brandon Gap easier. Do I think my house is now worth more money being 3 miles from Jackson Gore? Not so much.

What I am most interested in is where is Vail spending the $35million in improvements across the three mountains? I saw no mention of a specific improvement value when they bought Stowe, and with the exception of a lower season pass and Epic signs at the ticket windows, I saw no real sign of Vail's ownership at Stowe this past year. What portion of that $35 million will be spent at each mountain? on what? That's my interest. on the plus side I spend a few days to a few weeks in the west at friend's houses in vail, PC & BC, now being able to buy one pass for all of my skiing plus getting a local multi day pass for Snowmass & Highlands has just reduced my outlay significantly and has increased my plans to spend more time out west.

 

[spiderpig]

I have no idea if Wyndham is on the block, but Wyndham would be an exceptional fit for the Vail portfolio, and would also make a lot of sense geographically for Epic pass expansion.

Vail's gonna buy a hotel chain?

 

[mbedle]

Vail's gonna buy a hotel chain?

Good catch... lol

 

[cdskier]

Not sure if this has already been covered in the previous 200+ posts, but what happens with all the people that paid $1,200+ for an Okemo pass already for 18/19 season?

Are they to be made whole in that people will be able to jump in for $900 to ski Okemo and get the rest of the Epic Pass mountains?

Once the deal closes you will have the option to "upgrade" to an Epic pass at the then current price. If the price is less than you paid for the Okemo pass, you'll be refunded the difference.

 

[machski]

What I am most interested in is where is Vail spending the $35million in improvements across the three mountains? I saw no mention of a specific improvement value when they bought Stowe, and with the exception of a lower season pass and Epic signs at the ticket windows, I saw no real sign of Vail's ownership at Stowe this past year. What portion of that $35 million will be spent at each mountain? on what? That's my interest. on the plus side I spend a few days to a few weeks in the west at friend's houses in vail, PC & BC, now being able to buy one pass for all of my skiing plus getting a local multi day pass for Snowmass & Highlands has just reduced my outlay significantly and has increased my plans to spend more time out west.

My guess is at the resorts with already approved expansions. That would be Stevens Pass (big plans on either side of their current limits) and Sunapee. CB will be up for some but Triple Peaks has had issues getting expansions thru and we're just starting the process of a new one permitting wise. Okemo, don't really expect much except for a lift upgrade or two.

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[machski]

Curious how Alterra reacts to this...

Altera now needs a compete in the 1) the Boston Day trip market 2) VT $$ condo resort market

-Just having 5 days at loon is a check in the L column for Alterra when compared to unlimited at Sunapee
-Just having 5 day access at either Stratton, Killington, or Sugarbush is another check in the L column for Alterra when compared to unlimited access at Okemo and Stowe

These are the type of skiiers the multi-pass mountains are after. Low volume weekend day trippers and seasonal condo owners who can be swayed to their product and have $$$ (and likely to venture out west)

What could happen
1) Unlimited days at Stratton. Highly likely IMHO. It is comparable to Okemo in a lot of ways and owned by Alterra
2) Greater access at Sugarbush, Killington, or Loon. They could do this by upping the days from say 5 to 15, opening up Pico, or even making it so that if you have a season pass at either Killington, Sugarbush, or NE you could get a steep discount on the IKON base. Probably won't happen, but who knows.
3) Make a Deal with WAWA. WAWA was on the MAX pass so they have been open to joining a pass deal in the past. Would compete well with Sunapee

I am also interested to see what happens to Jay. I haven't heard anything about it's sale. After such a large investment in the East by Vail would the addition of Jay bring a marginal benefit to out way the cost of another purchase in the east? Is that even relevant? They may just continue the arms race between them and Alterra and see every mountain as more potential passholders.

Regardless, I am excited to see how this plays out. This is great for consumers like me who are not tied to any one resort and make weekend trips from a major metro area. The addition of Okemo and Sunapee gives me more options to ski with more friends. It also puts pressure on Ikon to become more competetive So needless to say, im pretty psyched

Ok, something's are wrong with your post. First, Stratton is not a limited resort on Ikon, it is a full resort. Subject to blackout dates on the base but unlimited on Ikon. Not sure how Okemo and Sunapee will be on local vs full Epic regarding blackouts Epic site is down currently). As to the day limits at Loon on Ikon, its 5 on base and 7 on Full Ikon. Not sure what they would buy to compete with Sunapee that is in good financial shape for Boston day market. None of the remaining areas leap out at me.

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[Jully]

Ok, something's are wrong with your post. First, Stratton is not a limited resort on Ikon, it is a full resort. Subject to blackout dates on the base but unlimited on Ikon. Not sure how Okemo and Sunapee will be on local vs full Epic regarding blackouts Epic site is down currently). As to the day limits at Loon on Ikon, its 5 on base and 7 on Full Ikon. Not sure what they would buy to compete with Sunapee that is in good financial shape for Boston day market. None of the remaining areas leap out at me.

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He was referring to a limit of 5 days on the base pass. I don't see them raising this, personally, at least this year. Ikon is already past their first price increase. I don't see much changing for this season unless they purchased a new resort and like you said, nothing jumps out (back east) except Jay.

 

[mbedle]

What I am most interested in is where is Vail spending the $35million in improvements across the three mountains? I saw no mention of a specific improvement value when they bought Stowe, and with the exception of a lower season pass and Epic signs at the ticket windows, I saw no real sign of Vail's ownership at Stowe this past year. What portion of that $35 million will be spent at each mountain? on what? That's my interest. on the plus side I spend a few days to a few weeks in the west at friend's houses in vail, PC & BC, now being able to buy one pass for all of my skiing plus getting a local multi day pass for Snowmass & Highlands has just reduced my outlay significantly and has increased my plans to spend more time out west.

It appears that the only capital going into Stowe is for integration purposes. Will be very interesting to see what they plan on spending 35 million on at the 3 new resorts. I assume that Sunappe will see the new lifts that they already planned to upgrade. Not an Okemo skier, but I would assume that some type of high speed lift from the base area to get you to the upper mountain lifts. For Crested Butte, they have short term plans to install a couple of lifts and expand eastward into the Two Drainage area.

 

[spiderpig]

It appears that the only capital going into Stowe is for integration purposes. Will be very interesting to see what they plan on spending 35 million on at the 3 new resorts. I assume that Sunappe will see the new lifts that they already planned to upgrade. Not an Okemo skier, but I would assume that some type of high speed lift from the base area to get you to the upper mountain lifts. For Crested Butte, they have short term plans to install a couple of lifts and expand eastward into the Two Drainage area.

Maybe Okemo will get that long-rumored gondola from the Jackson Gore base. Or, a smarter move, and more recent rumor, upgrade Green to a HSQ and drop it down to Mountain Road so you can access it from the top of Jackson Gore.

 

[machski]

He was referring to a limit of 5 days on the base pass. I don't see them raising this, personally, at least this year. Ikon is already past their first price increase. I don't see much changing for this season unless they purchased a new resort and like you said, nothing jumps out (back east) except Jay.

Well, not a valid comparison by him. Epic unlimited only occurs with a full Epic pass (otherwise blackout days appear). It's 7 on the full Ikon which should be used as the comparitor. No I don't see that increasing this year, but perhaps they will give each of the Boyne properties in the East their own days next year to address Vail's purchases.

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[machski]

One more data point. I am seeing all sorts of airfares in February from Boston to Denver in the $350 to $370 range. Assuming that you don't fly Southwest, even with the additional checked bag fee this is still cheaper than flying to the Alps.

Fares to Salt Lake City vary more, but the lowest fares are even cheaper than to Denver.

One thing I will give you (although you said that FLYING to the Alps is cheaper) is that it is easier to get away without a car in Europe. Although you were talking about flying into Munich and Zurich. I would still want a car if I flew into one of those cities (more so for Munich). If you fly into a city such as Innsbruck and don't rent a car, the airfares go up so there is no real savings.

And let's not forget the substantially greater travel time that you are if you go to the Alps. In many circumstances that will eat into the time on the slopes.

This whole fly to Euro for cheap is going poof anyway now that jetfuel is back around $90/barrel. Airlines are rolling out fuel surcharges again for Atlantic flights and I doubt fuel costs are going down anytime soon. Domestically, fares will rise but you won't see fuel surcharges without a bigger leap in fuel prices.

The other popular theme in this Euro conversation is to book on low cost transatlantic carriers and maybe change to a Euro low cost to get to destination. While you maybe able to score great ticket prices, that is HUGE risk. If your trans atlatic flight is delayed and you miss the connection to your Euro low cost flight, oh well. You are out of luck and will have to rebook and pay on your own (and maybe stay overnight at a city on your own you had not planned too). Better to book a single ticket (even if it is a code share) to preclude this, unless you're the gambling type.

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[Edd]

perhaps they will give each of the Boyne properties in the East their own days next year to address Vail's purchases.

That’s why I didn’t pull the Ikon trigger this year. 5 days at each would have sold me.