Vail Purchases Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass

[boston_e]

It's not just Vail in the west either. Winter Park and Copper both charged me $23 for 2 slices of pizza and a water for lunch. Never seen anything that crazy in the east, Stowe included. But some (Killington, Mt Snow, probably Stowe now) are close.

I don't remember exactly but somewhere around $6 for a slice sticks in my mind from Killington/Pico this past winter.

 

[drjeff]

I don't remember exactly but somewhere around $6 for a slice sticks in my mind from Killington/Pico this past winter.

Mount Snow is typically $6-$8 per slice depending on the toppings you may or may not want, beverages are in the $3 to $5 range typically depending on size and serving style (bottle vs can vs fountain beverage)

The slice of cheese and a bottle of powerade zero my son typically gets for lunch is if I recall correctly an $11 debit off of his prepaid meal card we get him

 

[mister moose]

I don't remember exactly but somewhere around $6 for a slice sticks in my mind from Killington/Pico this past winter.

That's what I remember, 6 for cheese, 7 for pepperoni, 3 for soda/water. So for 2 slices and a drink, that's $17 at Killington ($14.45 with 15% passholder's discount) vs $34 at a Vail resort. The Vail resort costs $20 a day more for just lunch, so for a 6 day trip that's $120 more. If you now ski Okemo and Stowe a fair bit (and eat lunch), where does the "savings" go?

Yeah, sure, you can ski with a backpack that has deli sandwiches, beer, sterno stove, cutlery, and baggies of fried rice or steak tips, but I don't think the average skier does that. And I get it, I do pack a lunch sometimes, but I get tired of the hassle, or I forget, or there's nothing in the fridge. I sometimes do it not for the savings, but to eat healthier than pizza, burgers or chili.

Killington - Unrestricted $939
Epic Local pass - $669 ((NOT unrestricted at Stowe, has blackout dates)

Savings on Epic local pass - $270

Number of days buying lunch when Epic goes more expensive - 14.
And buy anything else; hand warmers, a beer or two, dessert, etc, and you will be well under a 14 day break even point.

The appeal here is if you're going to do at least one week out West. It's a great hook for the Eastern skiers that fly west. Eastern resorts do not have that hook, or the short number of 5-7 day destination resort trips by each out of the time zone skiers. That's why the Epic pricing structure and blackout days in the East will get worse, not better.

Consolidation and brand loyalty pricing may be here to stay, but not everyone takes an annual vacation out West, so there will remain pricing and other resorts/hills for those folks too.

 

[mbedle]

I believe Stowe will in some lots. Waterville does have a lot with pay for parking.

Not really paid parking, more valet parking. $20 and they will park your car and bring it back at the end of the day.

 

[thetrailboss]

For the fourth year in a row we decided to go back to the most expensive country in the world because skiing there is so cheap.

For President's week in February:
Nonstop flight from NYC to Zurich, $445 (includes one checked bag per person)
9 Nights in a Zermatt apartment for four people(200 yards from the lift), 3,000 CHF
5 Full days kids' ski school including lunch, 550 CHF per kid
5 day ski pass, 360 CHF per adult (kids are free)
Roundtrip train from the airport to Zermatt for the entire family, 154 CHF per adult (kids are free)

Zermatt's lift tickets were surprisingly reasonable in price. IIRC when we went it was 75 CHF per adult per day, which worked out to about $75-80 per person.

Can't say enough good things about Zermatt...for both my 2002 and 2017 visits. My wife initially did not want to go, but once we did, she loved it. She still raves about it to her friends...and we visited Zurich, St. Moritz, Rigi, and Basel in the same trip. We will be back.

 

[Smellytele]

9 out of 10 times I bring lunch. If skiing without the whole family (5 of us) I will get lunch on the mountain more often.

Also people saying the Epic will be more expensive some day. Yes it will but I only think year to year when buying a pass. Nothing is holding me to buying the same pass the next year. If they offered a loyalty discount I may put that in the + column in the spreadsheet to help me decide...

 

[mister moose]

Zermatt's lift tickets were surprisingly reasonable in price. IIRC when we went it was 75 CHF per adult per day, which worked out to about $75-80 per person.

Amazing how the high walk up rates almost no one pays are shaping the thinking. $75-80 is now "quite reasonable"?

Ski club rates - $60.
Advance rates - $69
Quad pack rates - $58

 

[cdskier]

That's what I remember, 6 for cheese, 7 for pepperoni, 3 for soda/water. So for 2 slices and a drink, that's $17 at Killington ($14.45 with 15% passholder's discount) vs $34 at a Vail resort. The Vail resort costs $20 a day more for just lunch, so for a 6 day trip that's $120 more. If you now ski Okemo and Stowe a fair bit (and eat lunch), where does the "savings" go?

Where are you getting your numbers from that the EASTERN Vail resorts cost $20 more a day for lunch than K?

Someone already made a comment that price changes for food pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe have been minimal if at all so far from what they've seen and were not that substantially different from K to begin with. So if you were paying those prices before, the Vail argument on food is irrelevant to the discussion (if they do change them significantly in the future, worry about it then). In theory if you really want to look at cost comparisons pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe, you need to factor in the significant change in season pass prices as well. Stowe passholders are paying significantly less now than they were before for the passes.

Number of days buying lunch when Epic goes more expensive - 14.
And buy anything else; hand warmers, a beer or two, dessert, etc, and you will be well under a 14 day break even point.

If you buy those same additional things at K that also adds to your cost there. If I'm shopping for cars between 2 different brands and decide to add a feature to the model from one brand (a nav system for example) but not the other, I shouldn't be using that as a basis for comparing the costs between the 2 cars. That isn't a like for like comparison.

 

[mister moose]

Where are you getting your numbers from that the EASTERN Vail resorts cost $20 more a day for lunch than K?

Someone already made a comment that price changes for food pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe have been minimal if at all so far from what they've seen and were not that substantially different from K to begin with. So if you were paying those prices before, the Vail argument on food is irrelevant to the discussion (if they do change them significantly in the future, worry about it then). In theory if you really want to look at cost comparisons pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe, you need to factor in the significant change in season pass prices as well. Stowe passholders are paying significantly less now than they were before for the passes.

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So you think Vail won't be raising food prices at Stowe? I'm expecting they will. This is like thinking the tiger won't eat you because he isn't hungry now. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in my comparison.

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If you buy those same additional things at K that also adds to your cost there. If I'm shopping for cars between 2 different brands and decide to add a feature to the model from one brand (a nav system for example) but not the other, I shouldn't be using that as a basis for comparing the costs between the 2 cars. That isn't a like for like comparison.

It's the price difference I'm referring to. The Vail mark-up. Sure, Stowe's prices haven't gone up much. Yet. You seem to be fixated on only the present. The future lasts a lot longer.

 

[thetrailboss]

Amazing how the high walk up rates almost no one pays are shaping the thinking. $75-80 is now "quite reasonable"?

Ski club rates - $60.
Advance rates - $69
Quad pack rates - $58

Reasonable for Switzerland.

 

[MadPadraic]

Just what I feared. Skiing is basically an monopoly now. Vail resorts really is the worst thing to happen to this sport.

Colorado locals must be pissed. The list of vail owned resorts there must be longer than non-vail resorts now


And it's not like Vail resorts is adding anything to the industry. They are not reviving abandoned ski areas like Saddleback. No, they are taking areas that already do pretty well and buying them out, overrunning the local communities with increased crowds and people from out of state and the super-rich.

We know that Vail will never fail. If they do they'll just plead innocent to the government for money, kinda like the phone carriers. And I suspect the $500 passes will soon be gone. Once they control enough of the market you'll be forced to pay whatever Robert Katz and the Vail Executives want .

I don't get all the hate towards Vail. Their pass prices are much lower than competitors. They consistently improve infrastructure and expand terrain. Also, read their annual reports: they make money off of skiing operations rather than claiming that condo sales are the only profitable component.

This is screwed up. They are accumulating too much market power and are going to screw skiers. Especially anyone who which will hurt all the newcomers to the sport the most, but also independent ski areas like Magic who need to sell tickets to people who also ski at these mountains.

Over the years, I've had passes with at least Booth Creek, Boyne, Cannon, Gunstock, WaWa, Max, and Vail (Epic local). I do worry about the independent ski areas, but as a consumer, my experience with Vail resorts has been pretty good. My main complaint is that Park City got rid of it's excellent Women Riders camp the year after Vail bought them.

I do hope that a third network pops up which includes Cannon and, say, Snowbasin, Crystal, and Schweitzer.

Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.

On really good snow years they have re-opened Breck for additional weeks/weekends after scheduled closing.

 

[speden]

So you think Vail won't be raising food prices at Stowe? I'm expecting they will. This is like thinking the tiger won't eat you because he isn't hungry now. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in my comparison.

I think food prices are more dependent on how "upscale" a resort is rather than who owns it. I'd expect food prices to be higher at places like Stowe, Bretton Woods, etc. than at Mt. Sunapee. If Vail puts in a lot of improvements to move a resort more upscale, then food prices would naturally follow.

 

[cdskier]

So you think Vail won't be raising food prices at Stowe? I'm expecting they will. This is like thinking the tiger won't eat you because he isn't hungry now. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in my comparison.

It's the price difference I'm referring to. The Vail mark-up. Sure, Stowe's prices haven't gone up much. Yet. You seem to be fixated on only the present. The future lasts a lot longer.

I'm fixated on reality and facts. I simply prefer not to assume something will happen with no facts to back that up. The eastern and western markets are very different. Unless you're in Vail management, you also have no idea what they plan to do (or not do). I see no value in wasting time worrying about something that may never happen (and something that you ultimately have no control over anyway).

I’ve had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened.
– Mark Twain

 

[BenedictGomez]

Didn't notice any price difference in Stowe's food prices this past season compared to the prior. If there was an increase at all it was minimal & would be normal without the ownership change. Stowe has historically been pricier with food but never found it to be that much more than Killington, Sugarbush, etc.

I think there was an increase in the food prices post Vail, but as you said it wasnt that large. Also, the food at Stowe is completely fantastic, so there's quality to be had for that high price.

The bigger threat to all of us is the changing climate.

Somehow I dont think a slow 1.8 degree increase in temperature (even if it does happen) over the next 80 years is a bigger current "threat" to your business than market consolidation and pricing pressure, but it has been a while since I've run a proper SWOT analysis.

a single slice of pizza at Park City this past winter was $14.

Correction. A single slice of pizza-like product! [/NJNYpizzasnobbery]

Amazing how the high walk up rates almost no one pays are shaping the thinking. $75-80 is now "quite reasonable"?

Cosigned! If I pay more than $45 for a lift ticket, I'm annoyed with myself. Then again, I do consider myself unusual in that I take SOTC to be a bloodsport.

 

[MadPadraic]

We've focused on the "consumer" as being a pass holder, which most us are. But most skiers are not pass holders (I would be interested to know the industry breakdown of skier visits between pass holders and ticket buyers). For ticket buyers, the question is how do day tickets prices change? For this segment of the consumer such corporate consolidation may not be beneficial. I am not sure how prices have changed at Stowe, but $124 walk up and $98 advanced online is steep.

I dug into their annual report and estimate that 2/3rds of their visits are from pass holders (I assumed a walk up price of $110). I don't have many ski friends that aren't pass holders somewhere. Day tickets are too expensive everywhere (not just Vail).

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'm fixated on reality and facts. I simply prefer not to assume something will happen with no facts to back that up. The eastern and western markets are very different. Unless you're in Vail management, you also have no idea what they plan to do (or not do).]

I'm in Mister Moose's camp on this. Prices will increase. Also, I have no idea what you mean with your east/west market comment.

Here's a Census infographic by median household income by US county. The greatest concentration of wealth in America is in the east, so why you think Vail couldn't raise prices to western levels puzzles me.

 

[VTKilarney]

What the heck is going on in northeastern Nevada?

 

[drjeff]

What the heck is going on in northeastern Nevada?

There's what like 4 people that live there, and 1 of them own's a mineral mine is my guess! ;-)

 

[jaytrem]

What the heck is going on in northeastern Nevada?

Ahhh, so that's why a day ticket at Elko Snow Bowl is $250.

 

[cdskier]

I don't understand the relevance of median household income. Who said anything about starting to price ski products based on what people in the surrounding area make? The east/west market comment is not about how much people in those areas make. The logistics are different. The competition is different. That's what the comment is about.