Vail Resorts is buying Peak Resorts.

[deadheadskier]

I always thought driving up 108 to 16 took longer than 15 minutes, but it has been a hot minute. I was mores referencing Portsmouth though where the most money is now.

Without giving it away, you take the shortcut around N Conway also right for Attitash? I used to be able to boogie and get there from my place in Exeter in about 1:30, but that was always super early in the morning. Coming back did take longer.

Either way, those are short drive times relatively for EC skiing.

Yes, taking the short cut. It's 20 minutes to get exit 8 on 16 in Dover for me. A little less actually. It's probably about ten minutes from the Portsmouth traffic circle there.

Lots more traffic on 16 these days compared to when you lived back here. Dover and Rochester blowing up as Portsmouth is unattainable basically for family incomes sub $250k.

And everywhere in the area is getting pricey. There's no new construction under $400k in Newmarket. Even recent new condos going for that. Single families more like $475+ for 2k square feet. Speaking of Dover, I just saw an article on new apartments in Dover downtown for $2400/month for two bedrooms, 1 parking spot and no private outdoor space / balcony.

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[sull1102]

I wonder if anyone would make a run at Attitash, Wildcat, Crotched as it's own little cluster like Booth Creek did years ago with the Threedom Pass and WV, Loon, and Cranmore.

Actually, wasn't WV considered close to for sale for a long time with the Sununu family looking to exit?

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[deadheadskier]

I think Vail either keeps both Attitash and Wildcat or dumps them both and here's why.

A. Wildcat is the most efficient and inexpensive to run 2k mountain in New England save for MRG. 80% of the year you can run it on two chairs and a carpet. It only has one base lodge and requires minimal snowmaking and grooming.

B. Attitash isn't a good enough mountain to stand on its own in the MWV. There is a massive amount of second home owners in the Valley. If I'm your typical vacation home ski family who digs mainly groomers and my pass choices are the Superpass with Bretton Woods, Cranmore and even Cannon in reasonable range or just Attitash on Epic with no other options in reasonable commute; I'm easily going Superpass unless I have a western trip planned. Maybe even if I do have western trip planned. So, if they divest Wildcat, Attitash is gonna lose a big chunk of visits to the Superpass plus probably 50+% of Cat skiers will just stay skiing at Cat and not go with an Attitash Epic pass.

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[EPB]

Honestly, I am VERY interested to see what Vail does with its newly purchased NH properties. As someone previously said, they now own FOUR major resorts in NH. ASC had to divest when it had control of three (maybe four--Cranmore, Attitash, WV, and at least part of Loon IIRC). I wonder if they will have to spin off one or two and which ones they spin off.

NH's ski market is very different from Maine or Vermont in that there are a fair number of larger "day" areas as opposed to destination resorts. Vail now has three areas I might consider to be day areas (Crotched, Sunapee, maybe Wildcat) and one "destination" resort (Attitash). Big consideration for me is the amount of folks staying onsite in lodging to make it a "destination" area. Although, admittedly, Wildcat doesn't really fit into a day or a destination area because it has no real onsite lodging but is pretty far from the major cities.

And, once again, we are all shown that Vail is not too eager to buy a place that needs a lot of work to reopen (such as Saddleback) and is more inclined to go with established brands (Stowe, Triple Peaks, Peaks Resorts). Anyone think that Boyne will cash out? Sugarbush (Win is getting old)?

Me too. Don't forget they now own three big boys in VT, too. That could potentially be a problem, too. I'd be interested to make sense of the logic used in the antitrust case back then to see what it could portend this time around.

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[BenedictGomez]

Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true. Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.

 

[EPB]

I think Vail either keeps both Attitash and Wildcat or dumps them both and here's why.

A. Wildcat is the most efficient and inexpensive to run 2k mountain in New England save for MRG. 80% of the year you can run it on two chairs and a carpet. It only has one base lodge and requires minimal snowmaking and grooming.

B. Attitash isn't a good enough mountain to stand on its own in the MWV. There is a massive amount of second home owners in the Valley. If I'm your typical vacation home ski family who digs mainly groomers and my pass choices are the Superpass with Bretton Woods, Cranmore and even Cannon in reasonable range or just Attitash on Epic with no other options in reasonable commute; I'm easily going Superpass unless I have a western trip planned. Maybe even if I do have western trip planned. So, if they divest Wildcat, Attitash is gonna lose a big chunk of visits to the Superpass plus probably 50+% of Cat skiers will just stay skiing at Cat and not go with an Attitash Epic pass.

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Totally with you on A.

Re B: do you really think there are enough people that would actually make good use of the super pass with second homes in the MWV? The only customer archetypes I could see using it are bachelor nomads and retired people. With a family, it would be a lot to ask to drive to your second home then drive to BW or Cannon with any regularity.

I've been through this exercise before because I've thought about whether skiing Cannon more often would make sense. The only concussion I could draw is that I'd need to be based in Lincoln/N. Woodstock to pull it off. If you're in NoCo, BW and Cannon become 40 and 60ish minute hikes. If you're near Attitash, you can get that down to 25 and 45ish, but in that case, you're a stone's throw from Attitash, so why ski Cranmore, BW and Cannon?

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[cdskier]

Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true. Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.

Hah. So true!

 

[deadheadskier]

Totally with you on A.

Re B: do you really think there are enough people that would actually make good use of the super pass with second homes in the MWV? The only customer archetypes I could see using it are bachelor nomads and retired people. With a family, it would be a lot to ask to drive to your second home then drive to BW or Cannon with any regularity.

I've been through this exercise before because I've thought about whether skiing Cannon more often would make sense. The only concussion I could draw is that I'd need to be based in Lincoln/N. Woodstock to pull it off. If you're in NoCo, BW and Cannon become 40 and 60ish minute hikes. If you're near Attitash, you can get that down to 25 and 45ish, but in that case, you're a stone's throw from Attitash, so why ski Cranmore, BW and Cannon?

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3 vs 1.

Personally, if it was me; I'd be one of the folks who just stayed at Wildcat. It's my favorite overall skiing experience in New England. Unless Vail really screws the place up, I pretty much always see myself having a pass there provided my primary residence remains on the NH Seacoast.

But, if I was someone who preferred a more manicured skiing experience I'd take the BW, Cranmore and Cannon access over just Attitash even recognizing two out of three would have significantly longer commutes. Cannon is a much better better mountain than Attitash IMO. Even though BW is pretty flat, I actually think it's a better skiing experience than Attitash due to having vastly more glades and far more/better snow.

So given the scenario, I'd see myself skiing Cranmore on Saturdays when conditions weren't great and I want something convenient. Bretton Woods on Saturdays that the conditions were good; and then most Sundays I'd hit Cannon on my way South out of town.

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[Edd]

Even though BW is pretty flat, I actually think it's a better skiing experience than Attitash due to having vastly more glades and far more/better snow.

Truth. Also, even from North Conway proper, the BW drive is a piece of cake. The Cannon drive feels longer than it actually is, somehow.

 

[EPB]

Truth. Also, even from North Conway proper, the BW drive is a piece of cake. The Cannon drive feels longer than it actually is, somehow.

I hear what you guys are saying, I just can't imagine getting to Cannon with any regularity from MWV after already driving there from down south most weekends in the winter. Cannon is the only of the three of the three I'd take over Attitash. It's got the most challenging terrain in NH and some of the toughest in the east. Their snow isnt fantastic and I personally don't like the layout. These factors make Wildcat the better overall experience for me, too (easily the second best terrain in NH and you can crank out a full day's worth of runs at most places by noon there).

I rarely went to Cranmore when I wasn't racing, but I never found that place interesting. That could have changed a bit with that new upper mountain triple that lets you access the steeper stuff more easily/directly - not sure.

Maybe I never got the memo, but BW has always bored me. A day skiing is better than a day sitting at home, but every time I went there and poked around in the woods, I was disappointed by the lack of pitch generally, and the lack of sustained pitch where I was able to find a little bit of steepness. It's a great operation, but skews too Sr. citizen and/or lower intermediate for me.

Attitash only on the epic local pass is ~$200 cheaper than the super pass, and unless I'm a bachelor with his own MWV pad, I don't know how I pull off not spending almost all my days at Cranmore or BW. I'd rather ski Attitash and use the savings to take some day trips wherever I wanted, or use the savings to take a weekend to VT (granted, savings would only pay for a trip if you needed to buy passes for a family, not just one for yourself).

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[EPB]

Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true. Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.

I know. I cringed writing it, but you got exactly what I meant.

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[deadheadskier]

I hear what you guys are saying, I just can't imagine getting to Cannon with any regularity from MWV after already driving there from down south most weekends in the winter. Cannon is the only of the three of the three I'd take over Attitash. It's got the most challenging terrain in NH and some of the toughest in the east. Their snow isnt fantastic and I personally don't like the layout. These factors make Wildcat the better overall experience for me, too (easily the second best terrain in NH and you can crank out a full day's worth of runs at most places by noon there).

I rarely went to Cranmore when I wasn't racing, but I never found that place interesting. That could have changed a bit with that new upper mountain triple that lets you access the steeper stuff more easily/directly - not sure.

Maybe I never got the memo, but BW has always bored me. A day skiing is better than a day sitting at home, but every time I went there and poked around in the woods, I was disappointed by the lack of pitch generally, and the lack of sustained pitch where I was able to find a little bit of steepness. It's a great operation, but skews too Sr. citizen and/or lower intermediate for me.

Attitash only on the epic local pass is ~$200 cheaper than the super pass, and unless I'm a bachelor with his own MWV pad, I don't know how I pull off not spending almost all my days at Cranmore or BW. I'd rather ski Attitash and use the savings to take some day trips wherever I wanted, or use the savings to take a weekend to VT (granted, savings would only pay for a trip if you needed to buy passes for a family, not just one for yourself).

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As mentioned. Cannon would be my Sunday choice. Easy commute home down 93. Mix up Saturdays and Sundays between BW and Cranmore.

Now if Vail fixes the triple, adds a substantial amount of glades and grooms less, Attitash becomes much more appealing. As is I just don't go there often. Probably 90% Cat vs 10% Attitash.

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[EPB]

As mentioned. Cannon would be my Sunday choice. Easy commute home down 93. Mix up Saturdays and Sundays between BW and Cranmore.

Now if Vail fixes the triple, adds a substantial amount of glades and grooms less, Attitash becomes much more appealing. As is I just don't go there often. Probably 90% Cat vs 10% Attitash.

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That makes sense - missed the Sunday part. As long as you're okay bringing stuff up/down every weekend and don't do kids programs (I did them but plan on avoiding with mine), it's totally doable. I got very burnt out on Attitash and spent most of my time at the cat after it came in the fold. Went a year or two without a pass when I was in my 20s after college and before the drifter pass and really enjoyed getting away from Attitash. That said, it made me a sustained pitch snob and made snow just about anywhere else seem phenomenal.

I get that Vail hasn't upgraded any lifts back east (and just a couple in the midwest), but they haven't run into a scenario as dire as the summit triple before. I'd be surprised if they don't fix it. As BG mentioned, those guys are brand obsessed and nothing says "we're cheap" more than the summit triple. I'd take just making snow on the whole mountain, but would love to see some steep runs left ungroomed and covered like the good old days - Kachina, grandstand and one run between Tim's, Idiot's, Ptarmigan and Tightrope would be a good start.

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[EPB]

As mentioned. Cannon would be my Sunday choice. Easy commute home down 93. Mix up Saturdays and Sundays between BW and Cranmore.

Now if Vail fixes the triple, adds a substantial amount of glades and grooms less, Attitash becomes much more appealing. As is I just don't go there often. Probably 90% Cat vs 10% Attitash.

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That makes sense - missed the Sunday part. As long as you're okay bringing stuff up/down every weekend and don't do kids programs (I did them but plan on avoiding with mine), it's doable. I got very burnt out on Attitash and spent most of my time at the cat after it came in the fold. Went a year or two without a pass when I was in my 20s after college and before the drifter pass and really enjoyed getting away from Attitash. That said, Attitash made me a sustained pitch snob and made snow just about anywhere else seem phenomenal.

I get that Vail hasn't upgraded any lifts back east (and few in the midwest), but they haven't run into a scenario as dire as the summit triple before. I'd be surprised if they don't replace it. As BG mentioned, those guys are brand obsessed and nothing says "we're cheap" more than the summit triple. I'd take just making snow on the whole mountain, but would love to see some steep runs left ungroomed and covered like the good old days - Kachina, grandstand and one run between Tim's, Idiot's, Ptarmigan and Tightrope would be a good start.

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[deadheadskier]

They were good about not grooming Grand Stand or Kachina last year, though they never made snow on Kachina. Lower Ptarmigan also has been left to bump up.

I've lobbied for years for them to leave one of the four trails you mentioned ungroomed. It's basically fallen on deaf ears.

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[EPB]

They were good about not grooming Grand Stand or Kachina last year, though they never made snow on Kachina. Lower Ptarmigan also has been left to bump up.

I've lobbied for years for them to leave one of the four trails you mentioned ungroomed. It's basically fallen on deaf ears.

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Good to hear about the bumping up, but even under ASC, every trail I mentioned got snowmaking regardless of whether it was a bump run or not. I obviously don't need to explain to you the elevation and snowfall situation there, but let's just say it made a noticeable difference.

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[EPB]

Removed duplicate

 

[deadheadskier]

Good to hear about the bumping up, but even under ASC, every trail I mentioned got snowmaking regardless of whether it was a bump run or not. I obviously don't need to explain to you the elevation and snowfall situation there, but let's just say it made a noticeable difference.

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Really the only trails over the past 5-6 years that haven't seen snowmaking are Upper Kachina and Wilfred's. My understanding is the pipe is busted on Wilfred's.

I'm sure ASC probably made more snow though. My experience has been that for the most part they blow trails really deep, but only focus on a few key runs with resurfacing; Spillway, Moat, Thad's, Illusion and Morning Star. The roll out has always been pretty slow too for both Cat and Tash. The two mountains basically share the same crew. Rarely do you see snow being made at both resorts on the same day. Hopefully that changes with Vail.

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[EPB]

Really the only trails over the past 5-6 years that haven't seen snowmaking are Upper Kachina and Wilfred's. My understanding is the pipe is busted on Wilfred's.

I'm sure ASC probably made more snow though. My experience has been that for the most part they blow trails really deep, but only focus on a few key runs with resurfacing; Spillway, Moat, Thad's, Illusion and Morning Star. The roll out has always been pretty slow too for both Cat and Tash. The two mountains basically share the same crew. Rarely do you see snow being made at both resorts on the same day. Hopefully that changes with Vail.

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"Cat and Tash" ??? I thought it was "Kitty and Titty" ?!?!?

Also, I didn't think middle Ptarmigan has seen snowmaking in years.

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[deadheadskier]

Definitely got to middle Ptarmigan the past couple of years. It was last on the list both years

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