Yup - Worked there for 20+ years, so I can remember TTB on Right Stuff, and early season attempts on both Obsession and Northern Lights...
Good ole days, before ASC when LBO was puttin in Lifts and opening up new terrain almost every year
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Vail Resorts is buying Peak Resorts.
- Thread starter mbedle
- Start date
Yup - Worked there for 20+ years, so I can remember TTB on Right Stuff, and early season attempts on both Obsession and Northern Lights...
Good ole days, before ASC when LBO was puttin in Lifts and opening up new terrain almost every year
I'm a Cat homer. It's for sure overall my favorite skiing experience in the East.
They do deliver longest season in New Hampshire, but it's really not by much.
Look at their start and stop dates over the past 15 years. Scroll down through the website
https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/wildcatmtn.php
They basically get going around 11/20 most years and close around 4/25 over the past 15 years. They've only made May twice.
When they do open with Lynx ttb, it's most definitely the best early season ski trail in the East. But it requires a crap load of man-made to accomplish.
Honestly I think a better strategy would be to blow lower Catapult and run the Bobcat chair first. It would be a pain in the ass to walk up there, but the Cat hardcore's would. Quickly after blow open a cut over the Snowcat triple to have lift access near the lodge without hiking.
Get those two going then expand up Middle Wildcat and Catapult towards the summit before kicking on the quad for the season.
Get the Catapult ttb run going from the base upwards and then move on to filling in Lynx and Polecat
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They do deliver longest season in New Hampshire, but it's really not by much.
Look at their start and stop dates over the past 15 years. Scroll down through the website
https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/wildcatmtn.php
They basically get going around 11/20 most years and close around 4/25 over the past 15 years. They've only made May twice.
When they do open with Lynx ttb, it's most definitely the best early season ski trail in the East. But it requires a crap load of man-made to accomplish.
Honestly I think a better strategy would be to blow lower Catapult and run the Bobcat chair first. It would be a pain in the ass to walk up there, but the Cat hardcore's would. Quickly after blow open a cut over the Snowcat triple to have lift access near the lodge without hiking.
Get those two going then expand up Middle Wildcat and Catapult towards the summit before kicking on the quad for the season.
Get the Catapult ttb run going from the base upwards and then move on to filling in Lynx and Polecat
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ss20
Well-known member
So back to Mount Snow...I got a copy of the Mount Snow magazine for 2019-2020. There's a whole article on Sunbrook enhancements. Little Dipper is now a beginner trail with snowmaking and has been widened. They also "moved" many trails within the Sunbrook complex. The "new" beginner Little Dipper runs from Little Dipper, to Big Dipper, onto Moonbeam. Lower Big Dipper is now Moonbeam. The article also had the GM saying how they want to get to 100% snowmaking within the not-so-distant future.
Also a quick glimpse at the 2020 trail map did not have snowmaking on Fool's Gold over in Carinthia. Dr Jeff saw pipes with his own eyes so I'm thinking the map was rushed out to production (but it did have Little Dipper as a beginner trail).
Not sure what to think about all this without a new lift over there still. Normally I'm all for terrain improvements over lift upgrades but the Sunbrook Quad has been "due" for replacement literally half its life now. I distinctly remember rumors in the 00s about a new lift over there and I believe the permit to replace it was granted in 2011 or 2012!!
Also a quick glimpse at the 2020 trail map did not have snowmaking on Fool's Gold over in Carinthia. Dr Jeff saw pipes with his own eyes so I'm thinking the map was rushed out to production (but it did have Little Dipper as a beginner trail).
Not sure what to think about all this without a new lift over there still. Normally I'm all for terrain improvements over lift upgrades but the Sunbrook Quad has been "due" for replacement literally half its life now. I distinctly remember rumors in the 00s about a new lift over there and I believe the permit to replace it was granted in 2011 or 2012!!
urungus
Well-known member
Not thrilled at the flood of beginners this will bring to that side of the mountain. How is the beginner supposed to get over there, I don’t believe there are any green connector trails heading into Sunbrook ?
Got married May 1 on top of Wildcat. Wedding party, Bagpiper, & JOP all in skis and all skied down.
Best part was since we were all pass holders and the mt was open - It was FREE. No Lift rental, facilities charges.. Just the JOP & Bagpiper
Newpylong
Well-known member
The route they chose to turn Green has always been a green in reality. You can't even really move on it well with natural snow unless its groomed. It makes sense to reduce the difficulty to attract more people over there. Long John is a farce.
They chose that route (to start) instead of Big Dipper because it can easily be accessed off the summit without a new Sunbrook chair. I wouldn't be surpised to see some tree removal behind the summit valve station to make the the route more apparent.
They chose that route (to start) instead of Big Dipper because it can easily be accessed off the summit without a new Sunbrook chair. I wouldn't be surpised to see some tree removal behind the summit valve station to make the the route more apparent.
drjeff
Well-known member
Hang a right (or essentially almost go straight) at the top of Long John just past the summit pump house and you're heading into Sunbrook on a beginner trail that will take you directly to the top of where Little Dipper begins. From there on down via the new route, it's not much different pitch wise at any point that what beginner encounter on Snowdance or the section of Long John from the top of Carinthia on down to the bottom of the Sundance Triple.
Would you want to take a first timer, on their first trip up to the Summit down that route? Probably not IMHO. Should a beginner who's made trip or 2 down Snowdance or Long John be able to handle the new route? Yup. The biggest "challenge" I would foresee for a beginner using that route is their chair ride out, as loading the Beartrap Double or the Sunbrook Quad might be a bit more challenging for them than any other lift they've ridden in their limited skiing career
drjeff
Well-known member
Here's the picture I took on Fool's Gold not too from from the top of the run from the top of the work road that cuts across Fool's Gold, Nitro, through the trees of Claimjumper and on over to Mineshaft.
Unless they plan on not using those pipes this season, I think it was an omission in not mentioning Fools Gold in the Snowmaking expansion for this season
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ss20
Well-known member
I do hope they will now run Subrook Quad and Beartrap both midweek. I think that they will want to make this new green trail lappable without having to go all the way back down to the base via Beartap double and Long John. I also think the traffic that are will received, even on a random Tuesday in February, would be enough to justify running the quad.
jimk
Well-known member
Still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Vail owns Wildcat
Haven't been following this thread. How do you and other Cat regulars feel about this? I've read mixed feedback when other similar acquisitions took place - some don't like that their quiet, off-the-beaten-path mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant, others like that their financially shakey mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant.
slatham
Well-known member
Trail map on web site not updated yet.......
Edd
Well-known member
Still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Vail owns Wildcat
Haven't been following this thread. How do you and other Cat regulars feel about this? I've read mixed feedback when other similar acquisitions took place - some don't like that their quiet, off-the-beaten-path mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant, others like that their financially shakey mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant.
If they don’t shrink the season artificially, I’m mostly ok with it. I’m skeptical that crowds will grow much. It’s no easier to get to now that Vail owns it. The concept of Wildcat being owned by Vail is weird, I agree.
The only way I see the game changing is if they purchased The Glen House nearby and sold some ski and stay packaging. Then the crowds may grow. Doesn’t seem likely but the hotel is such a nice spot. I hope they’re doing well.
Jully
Active member
I imagine Kirkwood folks felt similar. Same with Crested Butte.
Don't imagine seeing much of a crowd increase ever at Wildcat.
ThinkSnow
Member
+1
mbedle
Well-known member
Are there any cases where Vail has purchased a resort and reduced the number of operating days? Maybe out west, but I don't think that we have seen that occur over here on the east coast. Also, it seems that Vail is actually looking to expand their early and late season offerings with what they are doing at Keystone and Breckenridge.
mbedle
Well-known member
I'm also having a hard time understanding how a company like Vail could determine if they make money or loose money in the few early or late season weeks of operation. With the majority of early/late season skiers being on season passes, I can't figure out how a company would determine what percentage of the season pass price be allocated as income during those weeks.
With the data available to us today from scanning pass media and modern software capabilities, it's actually relatively easy to allocate deferred revenue from products like season passes. There's more than one way to go about it... some areas still recognize the revenue completely on the first day of the season, some split the revenue recognition evenly across each day of the operating season, and others get more granular and accurate (and thus more useful for the kind of decisions you're discussing). As an example of the latter, you could calculate average season pass usage in days (we'll call this x), divide the pass price by x giving us y, then recognize y dollars over the first x scans of each pass. Probably easier to look at a hypothetical scenario:
Great Big Ski Area sells season passes. Based on previous seasons' data, Great Big Ski Area knows that its adult passholders ski an average of 12 days per season. Adult passes to Great Big Ski Area cost $899. $899/12 = $74.92. Therefore on each of the first 12 scans of each adult pass, $74.92 of revenue is recognized. As the seasons come and go, the ski area has more and more data about when and how much passholders are skiing, and all of that data helps inform decisions about opening/closing/etc.
That's a bit of a simplified scenario, and obviously there are always outliers. But it should give you the gist that it's not too hard to pin down the profitability of really any day of the season, as this method can be applied to any multi-day, deferred revenue product. The single-day revenue is obviously quite easy to track (e.g. f&b, single lessons, day tickets, etc.). Comparing daily actuals + deferred recognition to actual operating expenses tells you all you need to know about operational profitability on a daily basis, and analyzing trends over multiple years allows ski area operators to make informed decisions about things like opening/closing dates.
Now whether or not profitability is or should be the only consideration is another topic entirely.
I think the only way to really tell that is to shorten the season length and see the affect it has on pass sales. Only example I can think of that has done this is Killington during the Nyberg years. They drastically reduced season length. I recall there being a considerable drop in pass sales.
Cat season length is not the only reason I choose it over Cannon, but it's certainly part of it.
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Have they purchased anyone yet in the east that was a major early or late season player? Stowe never made a significant push in any recent years prior to Vail to open early or close late so Vail had no major reason to make any changes there.
As for expanding early/late season offerings out west, you'd have to think the primary driver of that was the loss of A-Basin and the fact that they obviously felt they needed some sort of early/late offering in that market. Will they feel the same in the east with Mt Snow and Wildcat? Will they decide to only have one of those early and late instead of both? Only time will tell...
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