Vote for Utah ski bus

[KustyTheKlown]

i take everything the wasatch backcountry alliance says with a grain of salt, but in their op-ed opposing the gondola they mentioned that they would need to clear all the cabins from the line and do heavy reinspections on the line after every avalanche mitigation anywhere in the canyon. that sounded impractical, but I also know my source has a heavy agenda.

 

[tumbler]

I think would it have to be true. They inspect all lifts everyday everywhere before running and with avalanches potentially hitting them even more scrutiny. I liked the idea of adding the concrete tunnels to the road so the avi's can pass over the road. That would be a billion better spent.

 

[thetrailboss]

Thanks for keeping this on topic.

Not a surprise, esp given the strong opposition by local non-skiing tax payers to any expensive fixes. Sounds like they are going to impose tolls so that those who use the road the most; that is skiers, are forced to pay or carpool. Only after trying that for a few years will they consider enhanced busing. Gondola sounds like a non-starter for the foreseeable future. Too bad. Selfishly, as a skier I would have liked a new gondola AND more buses

Final decision still not made. I think it will end up with bus lanes and road fixes. A lot are coming out against the gondola for a number of reasons.

 

[thetrailboss]

i take everything the wasatch backcountry alliance says with a grain of salt, but in their op-ed opposing the gondola they mentioned that they would need to clear all the cabins from the line and do heavy reinspections on the line after every avalanche mitigation anywhere in the canyon. that sounded impractical, but I also know my source has a heavy agenda.

So I have listened to the testimony from the last two meetings. Honestly, I just had it on in the background as I worked on other things. In terms of the breakdown, here goes. There are few in favor of the gondola, a lot bitching about Wasatch Boulevard in Cottonwood Heights, a good number in favor of buses WITH some changes added (some made a lot of sense), some against everything, a few asking for Zion-style bus system, several rock climbers against everything, and two guys shamelessly promoting their own "inventions" to replace cars.

Dave Fields came from Snowbird and testified in favor of the gondola.

Bob Bonar, "Cottonwood Heights Resident" also testified in favor of the gondola and read off a script. If that name sounds familiar it is because he is the FORMER CEO of Snowbird.

And another familiar name, Onno Wieringa, former Alta Manager now "Poma Leitner Consultant" testified pro gondola.

No big surprises. I did hear the Wasatch Backcountry Alliance Rep make some pretty interesting claims (no gondola in lightning, delays to inspect after avi work, no access for users of the backcountry, and opening the door to One Wasatch). I have yet to hear Save the Canyons weigh in--their solution is to close everything down and put LCC back into the 1700's. That ain't happening,

As you all saw, the county came in pro-bus. No surprise.

I have a hard time seeing UDOT going for the gondola. UDOT is not in the ski lift business. They don't have an expertise in that area and it would be a huge learning curve. There are also a lot of unanswered questions about fares--how much and who pays. I just see UDOT looking at this as a road issue and offering a road solution because most of their experience is with roads. The fact that they actually considered the gondola this far is very interesting--I expected it to be dismissed out of hand. That said, it was only considered after a well-connected real estate developer and former elected official pushed to have it start on his piece of land. A fair number of folks pointed that out at the hearing. He also spoke in favor of the gondola.

I love gondolas but I just don't see this as a practical solution or, honestly, one that I would use.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

WBA also claimed the gondola would only operate in ski season and therefore only serve the corporate interests of the ski areas

I am not familiar at all with traffic in the summer but I imagine the winter canyon traffic experience is completely different than the summer one, and the gondola wouldn't be needed in the summer.

 

[thetrailboss]

WBA also claimed the gondola would only operate in ski season and therefore only serve the corporate interests of the ski areas

I am not familiar at all with traffic in the summer but I imagine the winter canyon traffic experience is completely different than the summer one, and the gondola wouldn't be needed in the summer.

Correct as to both.

One person did say that it would work great for Oktoberfest. That's a for-profit event. There is a legitimate point that it is not set up well for those going to White Pine for skinning or hiking. That's an issue.

Of course limiting cars is not even being considered.

 

[thetrailboss]

Testimony is here: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/draft-eis/

You can offer comments right up until tomorrow.

 

[jimmywilson69]

build the parking garage(s) and make it bus only unless you stay up there. Use hybrid/natural gas busses, and emissions are lower. Build some avalanche tunnels so it can stay open as much as possible.

Seems pretty simple.

If I'm out there on vacation I'll just consider the toll another vacation expense. I suspect most people would agree.

The gondola was a cool idea to me because it would open the door to 1 wasatch, which regardless of what the NIMBYs say would really make Utah a very different location than anywhere else in North America

 

[BenedictGomez]

I just see UDOT looking at this as a road issue and offering a road solution because most of their experience is with roads.

Sadly, after 4,582 things are considered, I strongly suspect this carries the most weight.
The cat will always choose "claws" to slay the mouse, no matter how many choices at its' disposal.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Of course limiting cars is not even being considered.

Is there any traffic discussion about a short tunnel between LCC & BCC?

 

[kingslug]

Making it bus only would improve it a lot. Then you are in control of what type of vehicle is going up and down that road...a bus that is equipped to deal with it, not a car on bald tires. It won't mitigate the avalanche problem but thats another story. My bet is on this as it is what they know. Tunnels....damn expensive.

 

[thetrailboss]

Is there any traffic discussion about a short tunnel between LCC & BCC?

Ted Johnson, former owner of Snowbird, proposed that idea almost 50 years ago I think. Or maybe it was a loop train. Either way you just caused Save the Canyons’ collective heads to explode.

 

[thetrailboss]

A fair number of commenters noted that this problem was created by the ski resorts for a number of reasons. One, relatively cheap season passes. Two, the “four-letter pass”. It does seem that the taxpayers are asked to subsidize the solution to a problem that the ski areas created. This is the hidden cost of a discount multi-mountain pass program.

 

[machski]

A fair number of commenters noted that this problem was created by the ski resorts for a number of reasons. One, relatively cheap season passes. Two, the “four-letter pass”. It does seem that the taxpayers are asked to subsidize the solution to a problem that the ski areas created. This is the hidden cost of a discount multi-mountain pass program.

So the flip side to that is the resorts cannot lodge all the increased skiers. So that boosts the SLC basin lodging and visitation, adding revenue into the tax base that the locals do not have to.

So yes, you could cut out the big cheap passes from the Canyon resorts (well, not really Solitude). The question is, would the resorts be able to continue to draw at a good enough level alone to be fiscally stable and able to reinvest? And by alone, I mean that to be drawing enough interest without a combo pass lead in. What may have happened before may not exist in the current super pass era for that.

 

[snoseek]

So the flip side to that is the resorts cannot lodge all the increased skiers. So that boosts the SLC basin lodging and visitation, adding revenue into the tax base that the locals do not have to.

So yes, you could cut out the big cheap passes from the Canyon resorts (well, not really Solitude). The question is, would the resorts be able to continue to draw at a good enough level alone to be fiscally stable and able to reinvest? And by alone, I mean that to be drawing enough interest without a combo pass lead in. What may have happened before may not exist in the current super pass era for that.

The whole valley is in out of control growth and word is out on Utah skiing. The corner is turned with or without IKON IMO

 

[jimk]

The whole valley is in out of control growth and word is out on Utah skiing. The corner is turned with or without IKON IMO

I believe snoseek spent quite a bit of time/yrs in Utah and so his opinion is very valid, same with trailboss, but as a longtime mid-Atlantic skier and relative newcomer to frequent ski days in Utah I have to offer an alternative opinion. I have skied 30-40 days in Utah in each of the last three years and 10-20 days for the three years prior to that. For me, Little Cottonwood Canyon is still Nirvanna. There are only about 5 or 6 days each season when the canyon is a cluster-f and my easy solution to that is just to not ski those days or avoid the AM powder frenzy and go skiing at 130PM. The rest of the season the place is great and the quality of the skiing superb, esp. considering it's a 20 min drive from my son's home in the SLC suburbs.

 

[kingslug]

Never thought I would do it but we have had a good experience basing out of PC..then going to Alta/Bird a few times. PC doesn't compare but it gets snow and has pretty good areas. And yes..every time I say this someone says...but Alta gets more snow..yes it does..if you can get to it.
Things are changing..have to adjust.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Never thought I would do it but we have had a good experience basing out of PC..then going to Alta/Bird a few times.

That's what we've done the times we've been to Utah. I dont see what the big deal is, it's not that far of a drive, the highways are fantastic, and I much prefer the lifestyle / ski experience of the Back to staying in Sandy or something. Not that Sandy isnt nice, but it's just not the whole ski vacation immersion enchilada.

 

[BenedictGomez]

There are only about 5 or 6 days each season when the canyon is a cluster-f

Is that really true? From this board & reading things like PCR, SLT, etc.. it seems like all hells' broken loose. Just people over-complaining?

 

[jimmywilson69]

Right I thought this was an every weekend problem out there especially based on our SLC based moderator.