Vt dropping travel restrictions for people vaccinated effective Feb 23rd

[drjeff]

There's no pretending 1/2 million people had died of a single disease

But yet over 600,000 died from Cancer in 2020 in the US per the American Cancer Society, and you don't see nearly the same level of hysteria to avoid every associated risk factor out there...... Perspective!

And yes I fully get that the transmissability and disease process of COVID and Cancer are vastly different with about all they have in common is they both begin with the letter "C" and there is skepticism from some about if applicable vaccines for each disease work....

 

[Andrew B.]

What level of risk is acceptable?
40,000 people a year die in car crashes and another 4M are seriously injured.
We all accept that risk everyday

Like Covid, my road safety is dependent upon others and we are not banning cars anytime soon.

 

[abc]

Like Covid, my road safety is dependent upon others and we are not banning cars anytime soon.

We only allow people who has driving license to drive on the road. How many more deaths from car crashes do you think it would be if we remove that requirement?

We do a lot of things to mitigate the risk to balance the benefits. We accept those restrictions and limitations every time we get into a car. Do you see people demonstrating against driver’s license?

Masks and quarantine are the equivalence in mitigating the risk of covid.

Thanks for bringing forth a perfect analogy!

 

[Andrew B.]

We only allow people who has driving license to drive on the road. How many more deaths from car crashes do you think it would be if we remove that requirement?

We do a lot of things to mitigate the risk to balance the benefits. We accept those restrictions and limitations every time we get into a car. Do you see people demonstrating against driver’s license?

Masks and quarantine are the equivalence in mitigating the risk of covid.

Thanks for bringing forth a perfect analogy!

then why don't we mitigate large portions of the risks cancer by banning things like tabacco, fatty foods, etc..?

 

[abc]

then why don't we mitigate large portions of the risks cancer by banning things like tabacco, fatty foods, etc..?

We do to some degree already.

Trans fat is now banned in many places. There's a high tax on cigarette sales. There's even a few ban on big soda drinks.

But you're going to a direction of increasing government intrusion that many are uncomfortable... There's the answer to your "why don't we".

 

[Andrew B.]

We do to some degree already.

Trans fat is now banned in many places. There's a high tax on cigarette sales. There's even a few ban on big soda drinks.

But you're going to a direction of increasing government intrusion that many are uncomfortable... There's the answer to your "why don't we".

So it’s not acceptable to have Covid kill people and the government can intrude in lives more than in any other time to stop it but the other known “killers” that have been around longer are ok?

You pointed out the real question to me which is “how much government intrusion is ok and when is it not?”

I would assume this intrusion ends when everyone has had access to a vaccine. Is that a bad assumption?

 

[drjeff]

So it’s not acceptable to have Covid kill people and the government can intrude in lives more than in any other time to stop it but the other known “killers” that have been around longer are ok?

You pointed out the real question to me which is “how much government intrusion is ok and when is it not?”

I would assume this intrusion ends when everyone has had access to a vaccine. Is that a bad assumption?

I think that "access" is the key word, and if it will be just that 100% access or will the narrative shift from 100% access to 100% utilization (vaccinated)?

To fully get 100% utilization for most anything, you need to basically have a military style leadership where those members don't have a choice but to obey their leaders telling them what to do.

Heck, I see it in my own profession with dental insurance. For those who have it (and it doesn't matter if it's private dental insurance or a medicaid type government funded dental insurance as the utilization numbers are basically the same) only about 2/3rds of those who have it, use it.

Societal manipulation via regulation certainly can have some plusses on a public health front (polio, mumps, scarlet fever, small pox, etc) however it also certainly can send one down the slippery slope of wondering how much government regulation over our own health and lives is too much verses our personal freedoms to make the choices for ourselves and/or our children?

 

[abc]

I see it inW my own profession with dental insurance. For those who have it (and it doesn't matter if it's private dental insurance or a medicaid type government funded dental insurance as the utilization numbers are basically the same) only about 2/3rds of those who have it, use it.

What about those who don't have any dental issues? Maybe they make up the 1/3?

I get dental insurance as part of my job. Sure, it cost a few dollars a month to join (my share of the premium). But apart from a yearly cleaning and a quick x-ray, what's there to "use it"?

I paid $10k/year in medical insurance when I was self-employed. For years and years, all I did was an annual blood test!

 

[gittist]

Since Vermont has dropped quarantine for people that have completed the vaccination routine, ((OMG what a surprise for Vermont (if only Maine would follow suit)), are the ski areas relaxing the standards for people being in the lodges? Too much to hope for?

 

[Andrew B.]

What about those who don't have any dental issues? Maybe they make up the 1/3?

I get dental insurance as part of my job. Sure, it cost a few dollars a month to join (my share of the premium). But apart from a yearly cleaning and a quick x-ray, what's there to "use it"?

I paid $10k/year in medical insurance when I was self-employed. For years and years, all I did was an annual blood test!

Are you saying 100% of Americans will get the vaccine voluntarily?

What happens when X% say they wont? I have seen some surveys that say upwards of 40% say they don't trust it. Say its half that, if 20% don't get vaccinated will the authorities say enough with the restrictions? or even 10%?

 

[abc]

how much government regulation over our own health and lives is too much verses our personal freedoms to make the choices for ourselves and/or our children?

I have no problem with adults making choices for themselves. At least in the case of Covid, they're not hurting others significantly.

But when it comes to children, that's a different matter. We do prosecute parents who withheld foods and other basics from their children. So I'm ok with doing the same with vaccines to children. Vaccination of children should be "basic" that parents can't opt out of!

All this handwringing about forced vaccination is to me more conspiracy theory than anything else. There will be NO chance in hell that anyone will be forced to get vaccinated. Just look at the lines outside of pharmacies and vaccination sites! All that talk about low vaccination rate is irrelevant!

 

[abc]

What happens when X% say they wont? I have seen some surveys that say upwards of 40% say they don't trust it. Say its half that, if 20% don't get vaccinated will the authorities say enough with the restrictions? or even 10%?

What happens if it never snow again?

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

The appropriate intrusion when everyone has the ability to get vaccinated is to open public spaces only to those who have gotten vaccinated and let the rest exercise their freedom to live out their lives as hermits.
Ala VT.

 

[Andrew B.]

The appropriate intrusion when everyone has the ability to get vaccinated is to open public spaces only to those who have gotten vaccinated and let the rest exercise their freedom to live out their lives as hermits.
Ala VT.

Do the vaccinated people have the brands or do the non vaccinated get the hot iron?

 

[drjeff]

What about those who don't have any dental issues? Maybe they make up the 1/3?

I am not talking about the total population with that 2/3rds number, I am only talking about those who have dental insurance either through their employers, privately bought themselves, or through the government based medicaid type programs.

Of those who have dental insurance, and that is roughly 2/3rds of the country, only about 2/3rds of those who have it, use it.

Medical insurance utilization is slightly better at just under 3/4ths of those who have it via private or public sources using it, with the utlization higher amongst the older and youth aged populations and women more so than men. Again though there isn't 100% utilization, even for those who do have access to it

 

[abc]

I am not total population with that 2/3rds number, I am only talking about those who have dental insurance either through their employers, privately bought themselves, or through the government based medicaid type programs.

Of those who have dental insurance, and that is roughly 2/3rds of the country, only about 2/3rds of those who have it, use it.

Medical insurance utilization is slightly better at just under 3/4ths of those who have it via private or public sources using it, with the utlization higher amongst the older and youth aged populations and women more so than men. Again though there isn't 100% utilization, even for those who do have access to it

But that's my point. 1/3 of the people simply have no need.

My Mom, for example, has such good teeth that all she ever needed was cleaning. My Dad, had the opposite. Many rotten teeth. Both have dental insurance from work. Needless to say, my Mom occasionally falls under the 1/3 who doesn't "use it" some years.

And like I said, although I always have medical insurance. Many, many years in my younger days I didn't "use it" even once in a year! I simply didn't get sick. That's your 1/3 right there.

 

[1dog]

Interesting how choice is good in some areas and not in others. Schools? Not good, health insurance ( or not) , not good.
My health insurance, went from $850 family plan per month ( $25 co-pay; no deductible) pre-mandated in '07, to $2500 w $4K deductible in '17.

And. . . still plenty don't have coverage. As for insurance use, it's generally been, like life or home insurance, you get it, pay for it, and hope and pray you never have to use it. Same. goes for health insurance. HMO's changed the landscape in the 70's.

30% of the cost of everything is attached to health and legal mandates that didn't exist 35 years ago. ( and no, I don't agree with the concept of mandated coverage for those who refuse to pay in) if we do it charitably, great, I'm in. Forced, not-so-much.

Dr. Jeff, my dentist and many others who are customers say they have dropped some since they pay out so little compared to the past years. I use AFLAC, as the big ones just are either too expensive or offer too little coverage.

 

[1dog]

Interesting how choice is good in some areas and not in others. Schools? Not good, health insurance ( or not) , not good.
My health insurance, went from $850 family plan per month ( $25 co-pay; no deductible) pre-mandated in '07, to $2500 w $4K deductible in '17.

And. . . still plenty don't have coverage. As for insurance use, it's generally been, like life or home insurance, you get it, pay for it, and hope and pray you never have to use it. Same. goes for health insurance. HMO's changed the landscape in the 70's.

30% of the cost of everything is attached to health and legal mandates that didn't exist 35 years ago. ( and no, I don't agree with the concept of mandated coverage for those who refuse to pay in) if we do it charitably, great, I'm in. Forced, not-so-much.

Dr. Jeff, my dentist and many others who are customers say they have dropped some since they pay out so little compared to the past years. I use AFLAC, as the big ones just are either too expensive or offer too little coverage.

what does this subject have to do with skiing? Affects our ability too spend $$ to ski more.

 

[JimG.]

I have no problem with adults making choices for themselves. At least in the case of Covid, they're not hurting others significantly.

But when it comes to children, that's a different matter. We do prosecute parents who withheld foods and other basics from their children. So I'm ok with doing the same with vaccines to children. Vaccination of children should be "basic" that parents can't opt out of!

All this handwringing about forced vaccination is to me more conspiracy theory than anything else. There will be NO chance in hell that anyone will be forced to get vaccinated. Just look at the lines outside of pharmacies and vaccination sites! All that talk about low vaccination rate is irrelevant!

So you're equating COVID vaccination with children's basics such as food and medical care?

You are truly lost.

 

[abc]

So you're equating COVID vaccination with children's basics such as food and medical care?

You are truly lost.

You're the one who's lost. Not only "truly" lost. But willingly remain lost too.

You took the statement out of context and make ridiculous extension to it. Clearly, you're also ignorant of the fact there isn't any Covid vaccine for children.

Suit yourself.

(people talk about this forum going to the dogs. With moderators like that, no wonder).