Where are the moguls?

[DPhelan]

terrain parks should shoulder some of the blame too IMO. back in the day when jumps were outlawed, moguls were one of the only parts of the mountain where you could catch air or challenge yourself beyond groomers. i still love to ski bumps when the mountain seeds them, but the naturally formed ones usually end up as misshapen, icy death pyramids a few days after it snows

 

[Twism86]

I like "natural bumps" that form from people skiing all day. Seeded moguls, not so much...

 

[Savemeasammy]

My 15 year old son gets bored to death on groomers and prefers to ski on natural snow/mogul trails whenever he can. There are plenty of skiers under age 40 in the Mad River Valley that grow up skiing diverse terrain which includes lots of mogul runs.

I'm just citing the article, that's all... My 6 year old loves to ski the bump run at our local hill. I'm happy to indulge him!


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[billski]

I will regret saying this, but skiing on well-groomed terrain is relatively easy once you reach an intermediate level. You don't have to be in the greatest of physical shape (look at me!) So I'd suggest some of that complaining comes from that.

Also, when the snow starts falling post-grooming, bumps are going to form and it won't get groomed down until that evening. Ditto for chop. This type of skiing requires more effort. There's not much anyone can do about that.

As far as I know, seeding of moguls is rarely done, save for competitive events. Most moguls are formed by free skiers (I think that's what the term "natural" was meant to portray." Do I have this wrong?

Hey Bushmogulmaster - You're back! How's your new career and calling?

 

[steamboat1]

I like "natural bumps" that form from people skiing all day. Seeded moguls, not so much...

 

[billski]

We've talked about this article before.
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/127333-Where-are-all-the-moguls

Thanks.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

That was my point. They are the product of humans, not nature.

Had I known that the author was a member here I would have been less cranky, so my apologies!

That's why I used the term "natural byproduct". Id est... the very act of skiing creates moguls, and hence they are a natural byproduct of the ski turn. Grooming is the most unnatural thing we can do to the snow. Grooming, at its core, is the act of undoing everything that the skiers have done during the day. Although I was enjoying it quite a lot last night in the demo Bison we're playing with right now!

 

[BushMogulMaster]

thanks! bmm, great data. IMO, presently, a place is in trouble when the start leaving trails alone. this happened over at ragged when the construction brothers got into money trouble, they left some major trails ungroomed. eventually after two or three seasons they had to sell the place.

I think that's a fair observation. If an area is failing to groom major thoroughfares, at least on a rotation, it could be an indicator of financial hardship (or just poor snow surface management!).

That said, the concept of grooming all beginner/intermediate terrain each night is not only unfortunate for moguls, but it is also terrible for the groomed snow surface. Without a fresh fall of snow, each time you till the surface it becomes a little harder (due to the combination of the ground pressure of the machine compacting the snow and the action/friction of the tiller auger melting the snow which then refreezes). After a couple weeks, it becomes "dust on crust" corduroy, with nice looking cord for first tracks, but skied off down to hardpack/ice/boilerplate by mid-day. That is the effect of overgrooming, and why even with important cruisers, it's better to rotate throughout the week, and then groom most of it for weekends/holiday. Preserves snow quality.

Unfortunately, most skiers have innocently come to expect acres upon acres of corduroy, not realizing that it isn't good for the snow surface unless managed very carefully.

 

[Twism86]

I assume I would be pretty much correct in saying that most mountains, at the ones I have visited, are over groomed? i.e. Blue, Hunter, Mt Snow, Jiminy (not much variety, Im a creature of habit)

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I assume I would be pretty much correct in saying that most mountains, at the ones I have visited, are over groomed? i.e. Blue, Hunter, Mt Snow, Jiminy (not much variety, Im a creature of habit)

Couldn't say since I haven't skied them. But it's a trend in general to overgroom to the detriment of the snow surface. Granted, in the east the conditions often dictate grooming because the snowpack has already been damaged by other conditions (freeze-thaw cycles, rain, etc.). In that case, the thoroughfares will need regular grooming. But in packed powder conditions (day-to-day life out here!!!), more prudence needs to be applied to preserve snow quality.

 

[Tin]

I will regret saying this, but skiing on well-groomed terrain is relatively easy once you reach an intermediate level. You don't have to be in the greatest of physical shape (look at me!) So I'd suggest some of that complaining comes from that.

No point in regretting, 100% accurate. On groomed soft runs even the steepest runs that do not have natural features like some of the Snowfields, National or Liftline at Stowe, and others don't take too much. Granted if you fall it is a fun slide down, all it takes is some shorter turns and you're down.

 

[SIKSKIER]

I've always considered Cannon a very groomed mt but in reality they always leave about 1/3 of each of the front 5 on Zoomer bumped.Middle Hardscrabble and Vistaway are almost always left natural also.With the influx of tree skiing in the last 10-15 years this also leaves a lot more sort of bumped that used to not exist.

 

[VTKilarney]

i still love to ski bumps when the mountain seeds them, but the naturally formed ones usually end up as misshapen, icy death pyramids a few days after it snows

Truth.

 

[billski]

moguls + trees = woods skiing

 

[jack97]

Unfortunately, most skiers have innocently come to expect acres upon acres of corduroy, not realizing that it isn't good for the snow surface unless managed very carefully.

What about time of day? I use to hit Sunnapee on a regular basis, had to ski the groomed stuff to hit the bumps. Most of the time the corduroy was on the firm side. Locals told me that due to bylaws, the groomers can only groom at night and the night chill would make the snow harder. When I took my family up north on a regular basis to Bretton Woods in the notch, they can groom early morning so the snow seems way softer for first lift.

Think that's there some truth to that or is my feeble mind going awry again?

 

[BushMogulMaster]

What about time of day? I use to hit Sunnapee on a regular basis, had to ski the groomed stuff to hit the bumps. Most of the time the corduroy was on the firm side. Locals told me that due to bylaws, the groomers can only groom at night and the night chill would make the snow harder. When I took my family up north on a regular basis to Bretton Woods in the notch, they can groom early morning so the snow seems way softer for first lift.

Think that's there some truth to that or is my feeble mind going awry again?

That's definitely true. The longer the snow has to set up, the firmer it will be. But most areas can't afford to have enough snowcats to do all of the grooming in the midnight-8 shift. It makes better sense to split things up. Some trails need to be firmer to hold up to skier traffic. Race trails need to be hard by nature. Main thoroughfares need to be "durable." But hitting the lower level terrain on the morning shift is ideal.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Unfortunately, most skiers have innocently come to expect acres upon acres of corduroy, not realizing that it isn't good for the snow surface unless managed very carefully.

Probably because most ski areas have come to market their "perfect corduroy" as being ideal skiing, not realizing that it isn't good for the future of skiing (IMO) or their bottom line. It would be better financially to have more natural trails than groomed and save a ton of money on grooming, but instead they're helping create a generation of "synthetic skiers".

And I WINCE my face whenever I read Facebook posts by ski areas bragging about their, "ideally manicured corduroy" - makes me think, well......wont be going there anytime soon.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Probably because most ski areas have come to market their "perfect corduroy" as being ideal skiing, not realizing that it isn't good for the future of skiing (IMO) or their bottom line. It would be better financially to have more natural trails than groomed and save a ton of money on grooming, but instead they're helping create a generation of "synthetic skiers".

And I WINCE my face whenever I read Facebook posts by ski areas bragging about their, "ideally manicured corduroy" - makes me think, well......wont be going there anytime soon.

True. But I think there's a happy medium. We should be proud of our perfect corduroy... but in prudent quantities and locations! I'm always torn on these things, since moguls, trees, and pow are my favorite conditions. And yet, this is one of my favorite places to be:

 

[JohnQ]

Was at Mohawk yesterday and they had a few mogul fields left over from the storm. Skier's left on Wildwood was about 1/2 to 2/3 natural as was upper Route 100. In the morning it was rock hard and miserable but after they softened in the afternoon they skied pretty well. What surprised me was the number of skiers (mostly kids) who dug right into them. Oh, there was plenty of carnage, but they had a blast. The nice part is that the lower section of Wildwood is at a reasonable pitch so people could jump in without consequence and with one side groomed could bail out. Gives me some hope for mogul skiing.

 

[Rowsdower]

Is there any benefit that grooming confers? I mean, does it insulate the snow pack or prevent it from melting, or anything like that?