Which readers own a transceiver.............

[ski_resort_observer]

Didn't mean to get your pants in an uproar but since the thread-starter pertained to having transeivers and avalanches. I just wanted to make it clear that walkie talkies would not have much use in that situation. I was just trying to swing the convo back to AHM's original topic.

 

[bvibert]

minor nit:

is it really a transciever? Or is it just a transmitter?

Transciever. It's normally in transmit mode until you need to find someone buried in an avy, then you switch it to recieve mode so you can track them down.

 

[AHM]

Tranceiver

minor nit:

is it really a transciever? Or is it just a transmitter?

The former, it sends and receives.

 

[SkiDork]

cool. So theoretically the dude thats buried could talk to his friends above?

 

[bvibert]

cool. So theoretically the dude thats buried could talk to his friends above?

AFAIK there's no audio, just some sort of signal the reciever can pick up on.

 

[AHM]

The basics of how it works

cool. So theoretically the dude thats buried could talk to his friends above?

An avalanche transceiver is a device that transmits a signal when in the "send" mode. The normal operational mode is the "send" mode. This is an audio signal, broadcasting at about 457 MHz. When it is time to search for a burried person, those on the surface switch their transceiver to the "receive" mode. In this mode, a signal (at ~ 457 MHz) will be received by any transceiver that is in the "receive" mode. With digital beacons, they will tell you distance and direction (I will not go into flux lines etc here) to the nearest transceiver in the "send" mode.

Once the burried person is located in a course search, the fine search or grid search begins. This is where those conducting the search hone in on exactly where to dig for the burried person, typically first probing while another person is tightly identifying the grid.

That should give you the basics. If you think that you might be a rope ducker in avie terrain, it would be very beneficial to buy a transceiver, take an avalanche course and make sure you are ready if something happens.

 

[JimG.]

If you think that you might be a rope ducker in avie terrain, it would be very beneficial to buy a transceiver, take an avalanche course and make sure you are ready if something happens.

Words of wisdom indeed.

Because the best transceiver is the one you turn on but never have to use to find anyone or be found by someone else.

 

[SkiDork]

OK - I see. You can switch them from transmitter to receiver, and you only do so if you're on top, not trapped below.

Makes a ton of sense.

Thanks for the insight...

 

[Geoff]

That should give you the basics. If you think that you might be a rope ducker in avie terrain, it would be very beneficial to buy a transceiver, take an avalanche course and make sure you are ready if something happens.

Right. That way, they can find your body quicker. A transceiver gives you a false sense of security. If you really do get buried in a slide, your chances of being found alive are very slim unless you are with a trained group. The fact that you were on that terrain in the first place means it's unlikely that you're with a trained group. A legend in his own mind with a transceiver is just a Darwin Awards candidate.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

. A legend in his own mind with a transceiver is just a Darwin Awards candidate.

Clever

 

[Geoff]

Clever

Not just clever. It'll keep you alive.

I've been through the quick & dirty training before heli-skiing and snowcat skiing a bunch of times. I own 3 or 4 books on the subject that I've gone through. I made sure I know enough to put myself on terrain that's very low risk for sliding. I won't ski with people who don't respect that.

I grew up around boats. I'm the same way there. I do it the safe way and I was trained to recognise what's safe and what's not safe.

 

[koreshot]

I have taken a number of avalanche safety courses and own all the appropriate avy gear. I have heard its important that you only ski OB with people you trust. I don't know anyone i trust, so I ski solo.

 

[riverc0il]

The reason I put this post up was to gauge how many of the posters were actually spending time in avalanche terrain. I got the answer I was looking for, and that was few own or set out in avalanche conditions. Which is fine. If I posted on an SLC forum, I would expect to find a whole lot more owners and users.

i think you would also find if many of the posters who answered 'no' in this thread moved out to SLC or were going to spend time in the SLC BC, then you would have nearly across the board 'yes' answers. folks can ski new england during avi season, tucks can be skied just as well in january or february as april or may. and the dacks slides are prime avi areas as well. most new england BC'ers on this board seem content to wait until avi conditions are almost nil to enter avi terrain. i am content with that in new england. i just finished reading jill fredston's "snowstruck" (review coming later tonight!) and it had me considering my entire reasoning process regarding avi terrain and what is acceptable risk in such terrain.

my opinion is there are a lot of folks buying avi gear that are pushing avi limits beyond what they normally would just because they have equipment for performing a resque. imo, go/nogo decisions should be the same regardless of if you had equipment or not. if you need to use the equipment, you've made the worst mistake possible. that said, entering avi terrain in anything higher than nearly nil chance without the right gear and training is inviting disaster. i think a closer introspection of go/nogo decisions and how people handle avi terrain in general is a good idea for everyone entering the BC but especially those that enter terrain likely to avi. i consider myself very conservative in regards to avi terrain. i am sure that subconsciously, part of the reason i don't have a tranceiver/probe/shovel is to avoid temptation. without the gear, it is a very easy decision to err on the side of caution and only hit the presis when the snowpack is bomb proof and as completely stable as it could get.

 

[AHM]

The quick and dirty and other points.

Geoff and Riv: a couple points on your recent posts.

1. Quick and dirty courses with heli and cat ops: Yeah, I took that training too, at one of the top opps around. What I learned was if it slid and the guide(s) got taken out, we were toast. That sent me to a serious avalanche course that I designed with a UIAGM guide for 5 days in Rogers Pass (I have taken others as well), some of the most serious avalanche terrain in North America. Why, because I realized if I was going to do that type of skiing, I better know exactly what I was doing and a five day course in serious terrain certainly was a great help.

2. You stay away from terrain that can slide. Well, that's good, but I am gonna guess that your cat/heli opp didn't supply everyone with the K2 Pontoon or the Summo, so I bet the terrain that you were skiing was greater than 25 degrees and that is some prime slide material. So, that gets back to point one. If you are going in this type of terrain, with or without these operators, know how to use the safety equipment. Be part of the "team".

3. Heli and cat opps have avalanches in the terrain that the skiers are on. Don't believe it, just call up Island Lake and ask them about a guide who was lost in an avalanche last year, while checking terrain for later in the day. Island Lake is a pretty good set-up, supposedly very safe and knowledgable. Well, gee it looks like even with a lot of precautions, let's not forget when you go with that heli or cat opp, YOU ARE IN AVALANCHE TERRAIN.

I also know a CMH (UIAGM) guide quite well, he often talks about slides while they are out and fishing clients out of slides. So, the skiing that most advanced skiers do with these opps are in areas that can and will slide. I think that thinking they will save you is the false sense of security.

4. This comes from Geoff: "The fact that you were on that terrain in the first place means it's unlikely that you're with a trained group. A legend in his own mind with a transceiver is just a Darwin Awards candidate."

I think not. The more you know the more you realize that the risk is big and you are just managing the risk. This is why I suggested for potential rope duckers to take an avalanche course along with having the right gear. I mean really, do you actually think a place like Silverton CO is safe. No, they have not had problems yet but either did Carbide before Bopal (sp). But the real risk statistically ( and we have a tough time here with stats) is your car is a whole lot more dangerous.

5. Acceptable risk: it gets back to the car. The risk is statistically higher, yet you don't bat an eye about getting in the car.

6. From Geoff: "I grew up around boats. I'm the same way there. I do it the safe way and I was trained to recognise what's safe and what's not safe."

Interesting again. Do you always, at all times, have your pfd on. I bet not. I spend a lot of time in a kayak and was a pretty serious whitewater boater. The pfd goes on whenever I am going to be on the water. It goes on on the shore, and comes off when I get back to shore, from a relaxing sea kayak, to fishing to whatever. I see so many boaters without the pfd on. My guess is your pfd is in the boat vs on. If it's on great. You are acting safely. If it's not your not. Sounds kind of like a "boater with a pfd in the boat iinstead of on is another Darwin candidate waiting to happen.

7. Waiting til conditions are nil: Not a bad approach, however, wet slides in steep terrain are common once a lot of warming and melt starts to happen. Wet slides can be quite a sight. I've seen my share. I'd be pretty careful thinking the conditons are nil. Take a look at what the CAA did on ruesch blocks across one slope. The breakage differed all over the slope. The avalanche bulletins are simply guides. By no means are the conditions nil. And again, you are just managing the risk by going when the bulletin says to go.

The bottom line is that as skiers push into potentially dangerous terrain, they should arm themselves to the best of their abilities and that means taking training courses, having the right equipment and knowing how to use it well. That was my point from the beginning. It's the approach I take, and it can make skiing that terrain fun, just ski it smart. Have fun and enjoy the season.

 

[dmc]

my opinion is there are a lot of folks buying avi gear that are pushing avi limits beyond what they normally would just because they have equipment for performing a resque. imo, go/nogo decisions should be the same regardless of if you had equipment or not. if you need to use the equipment, you've made the worst mistake possible. that said, entering avi terrain in anything higher than nearly nil chance without the right gear and training is inviting disaster. i think a closer introspection of go/nogo decisions and how people handle avi terrain in general is a good idea for everyone entering the BC but especially those that enter terrain likely to avi. i consider myself very conservative in regards to avi terrain. i am sure that subconsciously, part of the reason i don't have a tranceiver/probe/shovel is to avoid temptation. without the gear, it is a very easy decision to err on the side of caution and only hit the presis when the snowpack is bomb proof and as completely stable as it could get.

They actualy teach about heuristic traps in avi classes...

I'm glad you do what you feel is safe - that's what it's all about..

But for me - you just never know when it comes to slides. You can get nailed by one inbounds(Out west).. And you really shouldn't access BC gates without one - some places won't let you into certain terrain and actually check you for gear... I always wear one at Tucks early in the season..

I am conservative about avi terrain as well...And I'll be the first to back out of any sketchy situation... But I'll always carry a tranceiver if there's ANY chance of slides...

For me - and for my friends..

My transceiver is a piece of equipment I hope I never have to use.....

Also - carry a wistle... very important...

 

[Geoff]

6. From Geoff: "I grew up around boats. I'm the same way there. I do it the safe way and I was trained to recognise what's safe and what's not safe."

Interesting again. Do you always, at all times, have your pfd on. I bet not. I spend a lot of time in a kayak and was a pretty serious whitewater boater. The pfd goes on whenever I am going to be on the water. It goes on on the shore, and comes off when I get back to shore, from a relaxing sea kayak, to fishing to whatever. I see so many boaters without the pfd on. My guess is your pfd is in the boat vs on. If it's on great. You are acting safely. If it's not your not. Sounds kind of like a "boater with a pfd in the boat iinstead of on is another Darwin candidate waiting to happen.

I wear a PFD, always. In the powerboat, I also use a deadman's kill switch, always.

I also have my pilot's license. It's the same drill. Do it the same way every time. Do it safe.

Don't be an asshole and pretend you know how I live my life.

 

[loafer89]

I had a limited amount of experience with a transceiver when I was heli-skiing in B.C and we had to locate units that where buried in the snow around the base camp of the heli skiing operation before we could get in the helicopter.

The guide also did a snow stability test on a few of the runs that we took by digging a pit into the snow and studying the different layers of snow before we skied a certain area. Generally I was more afraid of the helicopter than the avalanche danger as I am a chicken when it comes to flying in one.

 

[AHM]

This was the ahole comment

Right. That way, they can find your body quicker. A transceiver gives you a false sense of security. If you really do get buried in a slide, your chances of being found alive are very slim unless you are with a trained group. The fact that you were on that terrain in the first place means it's unlikely that you're with a trained group. A legend in his own mind with a transceiver is just a Darwin Awards candidate.

My comment:

Originally Posted by AHM

That should give you the basics. If you think that you might be a rope ducker in avie terrain, it would be very beneficial to buy a transceiver, take an avalanche course and make sure you are ready if something happens.s

was meant to try and educate those who consider ducking the rope to be a bit more prepared. That's a good thing to say. The "basics" was about how the transceiver works (since one writer wondered if you could verbally communicate with the search party when you were burried) and the basics of a search, not "your good to go" and hence my follow up statement to take a course.

Glad you use a pfd! I think if you look at boating in general, most power boaters do not have the pfd on. So boater education courses may not be working. Most avalanche courses work pretty well. It leaves you with no false sense of security. It usually leaves you with the realization that you are out there on your own and you better be able to read terrain, understand safe travel, and be prepared to perform rescues. Can't say the average boater education course hammers home the safety or there would be more pfd wearer's and a whole lot less beer in the cooler.

 

[riverc0il]

5. Acceptable risk: it gets back to the car. The risk is statistically higher, yet you don't bat an eye about getting in the car.

whoa!! back up on this, lets see some stats. lets see stats that people who ski in avi terrain are more likely to get hit in a car accident on the way to ski avi terrain than getting in an avalanche. stats say that you are more likely to get in an automobile accident than skiing, but those stats are misleading since it is selective population sourcing. fact is, there are not any specific stats localizing just avi skiers and car accidents, so that can not be proven either way. however, when you break it down to just BC skiers, i think the stats would likely indicate a much greater risk compared to automobile traffic compared to the general ski population.

that said, acceptable risk is still a strong consideration when addressing avi terrain. there is no correlation between what is acceptable automobile risk vs what is acceptable avi risk because..... here it is: car accidents are most likely to be caused by other people without warning signs whereas avis are most likely to be caused by nature by warning sides you misread, disregarded, or didn't notice. you can not compare these two aspects as comparable acceptable risk because one usually involves situations out of your control whereas the other involves a situation where you are the judge and your decisions effect the out come.

 

[riverc0il]

7. Waiting til conditions are nil: Not a bad approach, however, wet slides in steep terrain are common once a lot of warming and melt starts to happen. Wet slides can be quite a sight. I've seen my share. I'd be pretty careful thinking the conditons are nil. Take a look at what the CAA did on ruesch blocks across one slope. The breakage differed all over the slope. The avalanche bulletins are simply guides. By no means are the conditions nil. And again, you are just managing the risk by going when the bulletin says to go.

like i said, avi conditions are never completely nil nor did i ever suggest they ever would be. i said almost nil or as close to nil as possible. as i said, things can still slide even when conditions seem perfect, but likelihood in the presis doesn't seem to great. always seems the biggest thing to worry about is falling ice, snow blocks, and boulders. those are a prevelent risk during the spring and more of a concern than a wet slide.