Who actually has the Most Powerful Snowmaking System?

[Rogman]

Power? Wrong metric. Early season, systems are air limited. Once the cold weather arrives, it is water up the hill. Percent coverage is also a BS metric, since really what skiers care about is total terrain acres. Gallons/Acre? interesting. Matters if you're trying to get a run open fast, but unless there's a total acreage factor in there, misleading. Number of guns is irrelevant, since different guns use different amounts of water.

Why shouldn't rental compressors count? They are around and available since other customers are more interested in summer use. It avoids cap-ex on something that is only used for a few months, and the area gets newer "greener" models, than if they had their own. Killington has compressor pads over by Snowshed (and other spots); they rent them every year; it's part of their plan.

However, going back to my original statement, generally the systems that can move a lot of water can also make a lot of air, and when conditions are marginal, they aren't trying to open the entire hill, so water up the hill (which a lot of ski areas publish) is a reasonable stand in for air.

Last season, Nyberg mentioned in a public meeting that Killington was pumping 8000 gallons a minute. At the time, they were not trying to get Bear open, so that whole side of the system was shutdown. I think they claim 11000 gallons/minute, but I doubt they can sustain that indefinitely. I suspect they'd draw down the ponds, despite the 2 foot pipe from Woodward.

 

[bigbob]

You can add compressor capacity by picking up the phone. I think the true test would be total gallons of water that could be pumped say per season. Crotched my be able to pump so many gallons per acre, but how many hours before the pond is sucked dry. Killington with Woodword may take 1st place or Sunday River has the River. Pico even runs dry at times, not hooked into the reservoir. Cannon has a fairly large source, but not the pumping capacity.

 

[drjeff]

You can add compressor capacity by picking up the phone. I think the true test would be total gallons of water that could be pumped say per season. Crotched my be able to pump so many gallons per acre, but how many hours before the pond is sucked dry. Killington with Woodword may take 1st place or Sunday River has the River. Pico even runs dry at times, not hooked into the reservoir. Cannon has a fairly large source, but not the pumping capacity.

I know from hearing the management from Mount Snow talk about this topic many times, the current industry benchmarch as to what are area looks for for "normal" snowmaking seasonal coverage is 1,000,000 gallons of water per acre of snowmaking terrain covered. Obviously some trails will get way more than that(terrain parks, late season "target trails", 1/2 pipes), and some less, but roughly put over the course of a season a million gallons of water per acre will lay down a good 2 to 4 feet of base snow that *should* subsequently give the cats plenty of snow to use to keep a trail sliding well for the customers.

 

[Chris Sullivan]

Seven Springs, 30,000gpm over 400 acres. I can’t think of anyone close in terms of flow or ratio. They do it with a combination of pumping and gravity. The amount of compressed air a ski area has on hand is not reflective of the amount of snow they can make.
http://www.adaeveningnews.com/timeswv/westvirginia/local_story_328015938.html

 

[drjeff]

Seven Springs, 30,000gpm over 400 acres. I can’t think of anyone close in terms of flow or ratio. They do it with a combination of pumping and gravity. The amount of compressed air a ski area has on hand is not reflective of the amount of snow they can make.
http://www.adaeveningnews.com/timeswv/westvirginia/local_story_328015938.html

I'd imagine that there isn't an available HKD snowgun product that Seven Springs doesn't implement, and probably quite a few HKD prototypes too

http://www.snowgun.com/hkd_snowmaker_news_sevensprings08.asp

Note for those that don't know: HKD's original founder Herman K. Dupre was also the former owner of Seven Springs, and HKD's main R & D center (affectionately known as "Santa's Workshop" ) is at Seven Springs

 

[Rambo]

Seven Springs, 30,000gpm over 400 acres. I can’t think of anyone close in terms of flow or ratio. They do it with a combination of pumping and gravity. The amount of compressed air a ski area has on hand is not reflective of the amount of snow they can make.
http://www.adaeveningnews.com/timeswv/westvirginia/local_story_328015938.html

Seven Springs claims the capability of pumping 31,000 GPM/water and able to run 550 sno-guns at 1 time with temperatures in the teens.

 

[Highway Star]

Seven Springs, 30,000gpm over 400 acres. I can’t think of anyone close in terms of flow or ratio. They do it with a combination of pumping and gravity. The amount of compressed air a ski area has on hand is not reflective of the amount of snow they can make.
http://www.adaeveningnews.com/timeswv/westvirginia/local_story_328015938.html

Interesting:

http://www.backyardblizzard.com/about.htm

Snow Economics manufactures and sells the HKD Tower Snowmaking Technology. This technology has evolved over twenty-five years of rigorous testing at Seven Springs Mountain Resort in PA. With over 900 HKD Towers in place, Seven Springs has the ability to make snow at the startling rate of 31,000 GPM (114m³/min) using less than 26,000 CFM (736 m³/min) of compressed air. At this rate, the Seven Springs system can effectively blanket over 500 skiable acres with 12 inches of snow in roughly 48 hours.

Clearly, they have major flow capacity (and are the flow champs AFAIK), but that's largely because they have a very large pond at the top of the mountain. They spend alot of time in the spring pumping runoff up there at a slower rate (less power).

So, while they may have the ablity to flow a alot, due to gravity, the pumping POWER is probably no where near what Killington has to allow it to pump water from 1,100 ft up to 4,000 ft over several miles. POWER means you have a big mountain and you can pump lots of water up it....

26,000 CFM is alot of air, but that's still less than half what Killington is putting out. To max out their water flow they need very cold temps, say 10F. There's no way they can flow 31,000 GPM and have it turn into snow at 25 or even 20 degrees F.

This all goes back to why overall POWER is such a relevant measure. If you have lots and lots and lots of compressed air (ie. powerful air compressors, and many of them), you can run snow guns such as the K3000 at VERY marginal temps. These are the exact opposite of a low energy snowgun. They can be run with 500 CFM of compressed air, while only flowing 20 gpm....which is massively inefficient and expensive, may only make an acre ft of snow per hour in Killington's case, but will allow you to make snow well above 32F ambient, and be open for Thanksgiving:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2972&stc=1&d=1258640926

Yesterday afternoon I was at Killington base and it was 41 degrees and they were blowing snow as far down as the bottom of Mouse Trap.

 

[bvibert]

Thanks for the Sotto!

At maximum output my backyard snowmaking system can support three guns pumping a combined 7gpm and using around 18 cfm of air. When conditions are right I can definitely lay some snow down!

Awesome! I forgot you were one of the local at home snow makers! That's definitely something I want to do sometime, probably not while I'm renting though...

 

[Greg]

Highway Star - for a guy bitching about Killington all fall, you sound like one helluva homer now. Different meds? :razz:

 

[Highway Star]

Highway Star - for a guy bitching about Killington all fall, you sound like one helluva homer now. Different meds? :razz:

No, I complain about them when they do bad, and promote them when they do good....sounds pretty normal to me.

 

[deadheadskier]

HWS

Can Killington cover 400 acres of terrain with a foot of snow in 2 days?

They can't. Who gives a crap about how many horsepower you've got. The results is what matter. Chris clearly pointed out who can produce the most snow. Spin it all you want with temperature this and that. One system side by side with another at optimum temperature, Seven Springs wins.

but, just like everything else in the world, you'll keep arguing as long as anyone is willing to do so for 30 more pages.

 

[Chris Sullivan]

H.S. your logic lacks, logic.
Let the words be your I am done with mine

 

[deadheadskier]

No, I complain about them when they do bad, and promote them when they do good....sounds pretty normal to me.

yes, but your fanaticism both good and bad for Killington is way, way, way, way, WAY beyond normal.

 

[severine]

H.S. your logic lacks, logic.

POTD! :beer:

 

[bvibert]

H.S. your logic lacks, logic.

FTW! We can end the thread now.

 

[severine]

Today, 10:02 AM

POTD! :beer:

Today, 10:02 AM

FTW! We can end the thread now.

Creepy!

 

[dmc]

yes, but your fanaticism both good and bad for Killington is way, way, way, way, WAY beyond normal.

Some would say you are the same about the Grateful Dead...

 

[Highway Star]

HWS

Can Killington cover 400 acres of terrain with a foot of snow in 2 days?

They can't. Who gives a crap about how many horsepower you've got. The results is what matter. Chris clearly pointed out who can produce the most snow. Spin it all you want with temperature this and that. One system side by side with another at optimum temperature, Seven Springs wins.

but, just like everything else in the world, you'll keep arguing as long as anyone is willing to do so for 30 more pages.

Clearly, you're missing the point. Killington maxes out at around 80 acre feet per 24-hour period. But that's good up to maybe 22-24F wet bulb. Sure, Seven Springs can do more (in optimal temps, like 15F) but that's not an indication of POWER, it's an indication of good/efficient design and having a large pond at the summit.

Any system designed for and only benchmarked at optimal temps, is destined for epic failure because the temps aren't always optimal when you have to get open. This is Mount Snow's folly, they seemed to have set themselves up with too many fan guns and not enough air compressors, and seemingly left themselves open to not being able to make snow effectively in these marginal weather conditions.

At 30F, seven springs isn't making as much snow as Killington. That's a result that matters. Neither is Mount Snow.

And they certainly aren't pumping water up 3,000 ft or across 6 miles.

 

[Highway Star]

H.S. your logic lacks, logic.
Let the words be your I am done with mine

Let me simplify for you.

Flow rate does not equal power.

 

[severine]

Let me simplify for you.

Flow rate does not equal power.

I would venture that Chris knows more about snowmaking than you do...