Why the MTA sent $5 million to Upstate SKi Resorts

[cdskier]

Now they just have to move the Catskills to somewhere it snows.

Yea, from that perspective the Adirondacks would have been the more logical choice. Although Plattekill does have an average snowfall value in line with some of the southern VT areas. So the right location in the Catskills does get decent snowfall. Still pales in comparison to northern VT, NH, and ME though for sure.

 

[180]

When is someone going to mention Bearpen?

 

[BenedictGomez]

I don't disagree with your position in this thread with respect the accounting and whether the state should even be in the ski resort business in general. But, as I recall, you prefer Plattekill, Whiteface and Gore to the "Big Box" ski areas. So, this might fit in the pigeon hole of: careful what you wish for.

I dont see how. Because with respect to Whiteface & Gore I believe it's already as bad as it can possibly get in terms of crappiness and incompetence, and with respect to Platty, the status quo can be quite harmful to Platty's success. Like when government owned Belleayre was papering the world with free lift tickets a few years back, or when MILLIONS of dollars are spent on "gondola's to nowhere" at Belleayre.

If the MTA had paid the state and the state had then allocated the money to ORDA, this wouldn't even be a discussion at all. I still fail to see why cutting out the middle man is an issue.

Because you have no understanding of finance/and or accounting. I don't understand how to fix a well, because I'm not a plumber. Proper finance and accounting are a wee-bit more complicated than your example of 3 parties passing a $100 bill.

 

[SIKSKIER]

What's kind of interesting is that you look at VT and the perception is that it is the state of tree huggers and a difficult development environment. The reality is that NY, NH and ME all have been more restrictive over time in ski area development. This isn't just true of generations past, but with modern projects as well.
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Not sure I agree with this.I believe the last biggest expansion of a major resort was Sunday River and the newest (we'll see) will be the Balsams.

 

[tumbler]

Could the state lease the operations of the resorts to the 3rd party who would be allowed to spend capital and the state would retain ownership of the land?

 

[cdskier]

Could the state lease the operations of the resorts to the 3rd party who would be allowed to spend capital and the state would retain ownership of the land?

Not without a constitutional amendment due to the lands being part of the Forever Wild Forest Preserve areas. Even a lease requires an amendment.

 

[x10003q]

Could the state lease the operations of the resorts to the 3rd party who would be allowed to spend capital and the state would retain ownership of the land?

No. NYS would need to change the NYS constitution and that is a 2 year process with a statewide vote on the issue. If would be very difficult.

If Belleayre's build out ever happens, Plattekill will reap huge monetary benefits. There would be a lot more overnight visitors who will drive the 20 minutes for a chance to ski Plattekill.

The other complication in the forever wild areas in the Catskill Park is the NYC watershed.

Bearpen is just outside the Catskill Park. It could be a monster and it is an area of the Catskills that gets good "Plattekill like" snow cover.

 

[Cat in January]

Fair points, especially in regards to Sugarloaf trimming at high elevations. There are some mountains in VT that have trimmed pretty high up, but not to the extent that Sugarloaf has.

It appears in addition to Bigelow, there were a few others proposed in the past that would have offered 2K+ vertical of skiing. Mt. Abraham, Mt. Blue, Old Speck as well as some proposals for Saddleback out to the Horn that got shot down. In the case of Maine, the lack of customer base within a reasonable drive probably slowed past developments more than in other states.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Maine/

The only one that existed beyond a pipe dream was Saddleback's desire to put lifts higher into the alpine. Memory was that battle was fought by conservation groups and protection of the AT corridor and not by the State of Maine.

Yup, low skier visits due to longer drives from population areas have really tamped down development of skiing in Maine.

 

[Jully]

The only one that existed beyond a pipe dream was Saddleback's desire to put lifts higher into the alpine. Memory was that battle was fought by conservation groups and protection of the AT corridor and not by the State of Maine.

Yup, low skier visits due to longer drives from population areas have really tamped down development of skiing in Maine.

Agree. I'm not necessarily incredibly upset by the rational that the AT corridor should stay as is. Hiking up there is kind of nice too.

The low ski visits are a real bummer. While I ski in Maine for the low crowds, its a shame there aren't just a few more people that ski Maine to lead to a bit more investment.

 

[deadheadskier]

Not sure I agree with this.I believe the last biggest expansion of a major resort was Sunday River and the newest (we'll see) will be the Balsams.

Well, Jackson Gore at Okemo I think is a bit newer than some of the expansion at Sunday River, but not by much. Okemo also has the whole new terrain pod with condos going in below the South Face area. Stratton has added some new terrain in the Sun Bowl in recent years as well. Then you look at all the massive condo / hotel projects at Stowe, Jay, Burke etc. Maybe it's just market demand and location and not state politics, but VT clearly has the most developed terrain is all I'm saying.

Balsams is a very good point. Other things around the state seem to have taken forever to get going though. South Peak at Loon took what? Almost 20 years to come together? Sunapee's West Bowl project has been a battle in the courts for a long time as well. Mittersill actually has been pretty quick to come together, but that's not necessarily "new" development.

 

[catskillman]

I dont see how. Because with respect to Whiteface & Gore I believe it's already as bad as it can possibly get in terms of crappiness and incompetence, and with respect to Platty, the status quo can be quite harmful to Platty's success. Like when government owned Belleayre was papering the world with free lift tickets a few years back, or when MILLIONS of dollars are spent on "gondola's to nowhere" at Belleayre.



Because you have no understanding of finance/and or accounting. I don't understand how to fix a well, because I'm not a plumber. Proper finance and accounting are a wee-bit more complicated than your example of 3 parties passing a $100 bill.

So true. Would not want this guy doing my bookkeeping!!! There are laws and consequences for inaccurate accounting.

 

[Smellytele]

Well, Jackson Gore at Okemo I think is a bit newer than some of the expansion at Sunday River, but not by much. Okemo also has the whole new terrain pod with condos going in below the South Face area. Stratton has added some new terrain in the Sun Bowl in recent years as well. Then you look at all the massive condo / hotel projects at Stowe, Jay, Burke etc. Maybe it's just market demand and location and not state politics, but VT clearly has the most developed terrain is all I'm saying.

Balsams is a very good point. Other things around the state seem to have taken forever to get going though. South Peak at Loon took what? Almost 20 years to come together? Sunapee's West Bowl project has been a battle in the courts for a long time as well. Mittersill actually has been pretty quick to come together, but that's not necessarily "new" development.

Attitash Bear Peak

 

[urungus]

with respect to Whiteface & Gore I believe it's already as bad as it can possibly get in terms of crappiness and incompetence

What are the issues with Whiteface and Gore? I got the MAXXpass for next season and was looking forward to visiting these places for the first time, especially the Olympic sites at Whiteface.

 

[cdskier]

So true. Would not want this guy doing my bookkeeping!!! There are laws and consequences for inaccurate accounting.

You're right, I'm not an accountant. The MTA, NYS, and ORDA however do all have accountants. Unlike you and BG that like to shoot first and ask questions later, I prefer to give those professionals the benefit of the doubt that they properly accounted for everything.

So to summarize...
-There's no actual evidence or facts to prove that NYS did not account for this transaction properly.
-The MTA, NYS, and ORDA all have the amount of money they should have ultimately had at the end of the day in their accounts.

That's one amazing scandal you guys uncovered. Let's pretend for a minute that this wasn't properly accounted for. What exactly is your end goal here in "exposing" this? What do you guys believe NYS is hiding? A scam where all the money is ultimately where it should be sounds like the epitome of corruption to me for sure...

 

[cdskier]

What are the issues with Whiteface and Gore? I got the MAXXpass for next season and was looking forward to visiting these places for the first time, especially the Olympic sites at Whiteface.

I'm curious about this too as I never saw any issues in how either were run. I don't pay as much attention to Whiteface, but Gore has also been doing significant improvements lately from what I thought.

 

[goldenboy80]

I agree that it does not make much sense to scrutinize these transfers from the outside. First, we don't really know the whole story and secondly, the amounts we are talking about are minuscule for an enormously rich state like New York. I'm working on the Puerto Rico restructuring and have been reviewing their budget... not a pretty picture. Given the fact that Albany is so far removed from the action in NYC, the politicians there decided to look in their own backyards for economic development opportunities upstate. The ski resorts like Gore are baubles that they are playing with and we should let them have it. Besides, they probably generate money for the state and what's the difference really between a state park that charges visitors a toll to enter and a ski resort that charges money for lift tickets and hot dogs at the base lodge. We shouldn't criticize the politicians, we should thank them for making an effort to support skiing in an area that might otherwise not develop as efficiently. Honestly, I wish the state of Maine would support Sunday River and Sugarloaf in some way so that they don't fall behind the rest of New England and attract more visitors. Public / Private partnerships can be a good thing.

 

[BenedictGomez]

So true. Would not want this guy doing my bookkeeping!!! There are laws and consequences for inaccurate accounting.

Yeah, in the private sector.

Sadly, too often the same rules do not apply for the folks that controls the muskets & bayonets. Wouldnt surprise me if nobody even investigates this.

What are the issues with Whiteface and Gore?

The terrain is great, so if you're a serious skier, that's (about) all that matters. Everything else is Keystone Cops.

 

[BenedictGomez]

You're right, I'm not an accountant. The MTA, NYS, and ORDA however do all have accountants. Unlike you and BG that like to shoot first and ask questions later, I prefer to give those professionals the benefit of the doubt that they properly accounted for everything.

I have a pretty good record here (and elsewhere) of shooting first in terms of financial scandals.

-There's no actual evidence or facts to prove that NYS did not account for this transaction properly.

Wait.......what? Did you even read the article?!?!?

What do you guys believe NYS is hiding? A scam where all the money is ultimately where it should be sounds like the epitome of corruption to me for sure...

Again, I tend not comment on matters regarding the installation and repair of water supply lines, because I'm not a plumber and would have no idea what I'd be talking about. You dont realize it, but the bolded above makes it obvious to anyone who's had so much as a low-level high school accounting class that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[cdskier]

Wait.......what? Did you even read the article?!?!?

We must be reading different articles if you saw proof of the various journal entries and financial records of this transaction from the MTA, NYS, and ORDA.

Again, I tend not comment on matters regarding the installation and repair of water supply lines, because I'm not a plumber and would have no idea what I'd be talking about. You dont realize it, but the bolded above makes it obvious to anyone who's had so much as a low-level high school accounting class that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I had no problems acing my accounting classes, but I must have missed the lesson about money being exactly where you expect it to be meaning something is wrong.

 

[JimG.]

What are the issues with Whiteface and Gore? I got the MAXXpass for next season and was looking forward to visiting these places for the first time, especially the Olympic sites at Whiteface.

There really are none.

Neither stacks up to the BG standard.

If you like good terrain, both have a lot to offer. That's all that matters to me.