Wildcat Lifetime Season Pass Controversy

[marcski]

And so the plot thickens.....interesting....

It's always the damn lawyers who cause the problems.... :flag:

 

[thetrailboss]

It's always the damn lawyers who cause the problems.... :flag:

No, it is the damn people who don't understand us lawyers that cause the problem :wink: :lol:

Just kidding.

What I find is interesting was that Wildcat was the first resort to do the lifetime pass perk for stockholders and others, probably including Killington, took their model. Very interesting.

 

[threecy]

I'm still waiting to see when the deal actually closes and if it's an asset based transaction. Nonetheless, if it's similar to the Killington issue, I would say Peak is justified in their actions.

 

[BLESS]

why not just appease the 1400 people...most of them probably never use it anyway...do you think anymore than half actually are still around/able to use them? If so, why not just let, say, the "700" people just keep them instead of creating a shitstorm?

 

[WWF-VT]

Looks like the definition of a "lifetime pass" is not your lifetime, but the lifetime of the corporate entity that runs the mountain that is selling you the "lifetime pass".

 

[EPB]

why not just appease the 1400 people...most of them probably never use it anyway...do you think anymore than half actually are still around/able to use them? If so, why not just let, say, the "700" people just keep them instead of creating a shitstorm?

Because those people would basically contribute nothing to the bottom line if they were allowed to keep their passes. If they brown bag, they would literally spend no money at Wildcat to ski. Why allow them to keep skiing there if you aren't obligated to do so? Any ticket/pass revenue from these skiers would create value that didn't exist otherwise.

If I'm not mistaken, these pass holders have been skiing on their lifetime passes for the better part of 30 to 50 years, so they've clearly gotten their money's worth and more. They put up money for some initial improvements, but have essentially been leeches ever since (which among other things, makes their "I played an integral role in the progression of x mountain" argument seem like a complete crock).

There's also a fairly strong legal precedent dictating that companies are not obligated to honor lifetime passes. That would also make costs to fight pass holders down too. Suing the mountain seems like a terrible idea unless you're one of the lawyers. It also seems to contradict the idea that lifetime pass holders are somehow helpless victims of the mountain when they are able to pool the type of cash to move forward with litigation.

To be more brief (sorry for ranting), it makes no sense for rational pass holders to sue the mountain, and many will return because they got a sweet deal during their time with a lifetime pass, and because they love their home mountain.

 

[mondeo]

why not just appease the 1400 people...most of them probably never use it anyway...do you think anymore than half actually are still around/able to use them? If so, why not just let, say, the "700" people just keep them instead of creating a shitstorm?

Why would you? They get probably no profit out of the pass holders, where if even 100 out of 700 continue to ski Wildcat with season's passes, thats, what, $50,000 (or whatever a pass there costs.) Every year.

They aren't really customers if they aren't paying for a pass.

 

[Smellytele]

I actually know someone who has one and has had one for 40 years. He actually skis there with his kids who are on the race team. So he does contribute some toward their profits with their season passes. And because of his free skiing tends to not brown bag it as much. So what I am saying is that he probably wouldn't have had his kids race there and be skiing there now with his kids if not for that pass. It built loyalty which he had past down to the next generation.

 

[drjeff]

I actually know someone who has one and has had one for 40 years. He actually skis there with his kids who are on the race team. So he does contribute some toward their profits with their season passes. And because of his free skiing tends to not brown bag it as much. So what I am saying is that he probably wouldn't have had his kids race there and be skiing there now with his kids if not for that pass. It built loyalty which he had past down to the next generation.

Chances are if you thought enough of a ski area to buy a "lifetime" pass there, you find the mountain/terrain quite enjoyable, especially considering the plethora of other options in that area. To suddenly break ties with an area (and leave all those memories behind) isn't easy for many to do.

 

[BLESS]

Why would you? They get probably no profit out of the pass holders, where if even 100 out of 700 continue to ski Wildcat with season's passes, thats, what, $50,000 (or whatever a pass there costs.) Every year.

They aren't really customers if they aren't paying for a pass.

I see what u mean...but Im sure those people buy food & berr there at some point...I dunno It just seemed easier than having to deal with those people, and then when those people get told their passes are no good, the inevitable bashing theyre gonna do to their friends, their friends friends, and so on.....its not like there were 20 thousand passes.....

 

[threecy]

I dunno It just seemed easier than having to deal with those people, and then when those people get told their passes are no good, the inevitable bashing theyre gonna do to their friends, their friends friends, and so on.....its not like there were 20 thousand passes.....

What are they going to do, ski at Attitash instead?

 

[Smellytele]

On another note I have no horse in the race and could care less. The guy I also know said it was a good ride while it lasted and wasn't angry.

 

[EPB]

On another note I have no horse in the race and could care less. The guy I also know said it was a good ride while it lasted and wasn't angry.

From what it sounds like, this is the sensible way to view the whole situation, especially considering that the passes were issued so long ago. My hat's off to him.

 

[kickstand]

From what it sounds like, this is the sensible way to view the whole situation, especially considering that the passes were issued so long ago. My hat's off to him.

+1

 

[Breeze]

+2

 

[Rogman]

The mountain will win. Just as the mountain will win over at Killington. Lawyers will take advantage of angered chumps, weasel them out of a few hundred dollars apiece, and then shrug their shoulders and blame the Judge when they lose. " Perhaps we'll have better luck with an appeal, get a judge sympathetic to our cause" and the cycle will begin again. Law is generally pretty black and white. Who wrote the fine print? The mountain. I can't believe anyone is so dumb as to fall for this. It was a good run, but it's over. Don't let anger fool you into throwing good money after bad.

 

[random_ski_guy]

I agree with Rogman.

The lesson here is never buy a "lifetime" anything. There is only one form of contractual right that I am familiar with (offhand) that would secure a true lifetime benefit and that would be a recorded deed/right/easement. Otherwise, "lifetime" = the company's lifetime and that is far more likely to be substantially less than your own lifetime.

 

[Geoff]

Here's what I wrote here about this when E2M/SP Land did this at KMart:

It's an asset sale. If you have a lifetime pass, it vaporizes. At best, you can go after the previous owners since you have a contract with that corporation. I doubt a judge would give you a penny unless you just bought the thing and hadn't 'made your money back'.

I agree with Rogman. A suit against the new owners is just a waste of time and money.

It wasn't exactly a "purchase". ASC defaulted on a large loan from a subsidiary of the Texas-based Eiger Fund called Ski Partners. ASC ended up swapping a 75% interest in the land at the bottom of Killington they got in the land swap deal with the state for Parker's Gore. Eiger created another subsidiary called SP Land to own this asset. Last year, Eiger was reporting that they were in the process of selling a big chunk of that land to Centex, a big Texas property developer that does both huge residential developments and resorts in places like Hawaii and the Carolinas. Centex backed out, I recall, last fall.

Last Friday, SP Land bought the remaining 25% of all that land plus all the Killington ski resort assets (allmost all on leased land). If you read the SEC filing from ASC, there is a $3 million escrow account on this sale. If the new owners refuse to honor the lifetime passes, those passholders can always get the Vermont attorney general's office to go after that $3 million sitting in the escrow account that is supposed to go to ASC if there are no other claims against Killington that aren't already accounted for. The SEC filing says that the new owners are supposed to honor those passes but I don't have any idea if that is legally binding.

It makes complete sense that the Salt Lake Tribune would pick this up. The American Skiing Company executives sit in Park City. The new owners of Killington bought the assets from ASC-owned corporations (Sherburne Corp and Killington, Ltd). The new owners also got the state of Vermont to transfer the land lease over to them. The contract for these lifetime passes is between the individual and the Sherburne Corporation. That makes ASC on the hook for breach of contract.

If you look at the SEC documents, there is a $3 million escrow account tied to this deal. If no claims are made by the new owners, the money goes to ASC. If I held a lifetime pass, I'd be going after a slice of that money and I imagine the Vermont Attorney General's office is taking a hard look at this right now. It's poetic justice that ASC gets $3 million taken from them as their final kick in the pants out of the state of Vermont.

The other 'fact' here is that the letters to the lifetime passholders were sent by Allen Wilson before the sale. He worked for ASC, not the new owners and was kicked out the door when the deal was done. The new owners had nothing to do with this and it was actually pretty good PR to offer those people 2 years of skiing.

 

[riverc0il]

There seems to be a lot less outrage here. Just a general sense that the new owners might be blowing the PR battle. But I think if the new owners kept all the other discounts that actually effect a lot of AZ skiers, I doubt we'd see any objection at all, limited as it might be.

It seems like the Wildcat pass holders definitely got their monies worth. And we don't see any of the Killington issues in which the season pass had been transferred between parties for a price making it so that some folks could not get there monies worth. It was probably a good run for the initial pass holders who are probably old enough to get a senior discount... if the new ownership still offers one excepting Wednesdays. :lol:

 

[Breeze]

I'm not SAYING that it is exactly the case here, or what level of bearing it truly has on the " discount" and "lifetime pass" issues at this point in the game : everyone has to remember that the USFS Federal Land Use Permit comes with a 3+" thick Operation Procedures manual.. That is a whole lot of fine print legalese, and it does get right down to the Dept. of Ag/USFS being a "silent partner" in the policies and procedures at Wildcat.

In many cases, it is surprising what murky differences can lurk within the Permit vs what a completely private corp on completely private land would be allowed.

As the USFS rep said in that Conway Sun article, a Federal Land Use Permit is never "transferred" in a sale such as this, a New Permit is issued. I'm extrapolating that to mean there may be fresh meat in the New Agreement, too.

That said, I'm thinking that Peak ought to get a little stretch room from their most vocal "loyal" skiers. Let Peak and the onsite Wildcat management digest the ramifications of a new Federal Land Use Permit agreement and see what happens going forward.

Lord knows some of them have dogged the Franchi Management from day one in 1986, I guess they can't be expected to bury the bone this time either.

Breeze