Wildcat Lifetime Season Pass Controversy

[threecy]

That said, I'm thinking that Peak ought to get a little stretch room from their most vocal "loyal" skiers.

In regard to the lifetime passes, now is the time to cancel them. If Peak were to honor them for a year (without saying anything about cancelling them), there's a chance they could get bound to honoring them beyond there in court.

We haven't seen the details, but if these passes were benefits from investing in the old Wildcat corporation, and if nothing was put in the P&S, there's no reason to honor them.

 

[deadheadskier]

I wonder when the last time a mountain offered a lifetime pass? The Killington and Wildcat passes were both decades ago. Also wonder what other mountains have offered them in the past besides Killington and Wildcat; and if so it would be interesting to see a situation where the pass is indeed good for life no matter if ownership changes. If I were a lawyer in a case like Killington or Wildcat, I'd want to see what an iron clad contract for a lifetime season pass looked like if such existed.

 

[riverc0il]

I wonder when the last time a mountain offered a lifetime pass? The Killington and Wildcat passes were both decades ago. Also wonder what other mountains have offered them in the past besides Killington and Wildcat; and if so it would be interesting to see a situation where the pass is indeed good for life no matter if ownership changes. If I were a lawyer in a case like Killington or Wildcat, I'd want to see what an iron clad contract for a lifetime season pass looked like if such existed.

I think Saddleback offered (or perhaps is still offering?) a ten year pass. That is the closest I have seen. It only made sense if you factor in high inflation. Otherwise, it seemed too risky and not enough savings compared to current season pass and ticket prices.

Those lifetime passes were probably a great way to get a big infusion of capital during the early days of development. But I can't see any fully built out area ever offering them. Which is to say, I don't see we'll ever see them offered again.

 

[deadheadskier]

Agree with such a product being unlikely at fully built out areas. An exception might be to use such a product as a tool in selling real estate?

 

[Breeze]

Found some of the pertinent Federal USFS information online for download at

http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_directives.shtml

If you don't want to download and wade through the whole Forest Service Manual, or Chapter 2710 special use authorizations, at least take the time to look at the Ski Fee Q and A. Its an RTF doc that loads pretty quickly and speaks to the specific accounting a ski area must use in paying the Feds their rightful due under a Special Use Permit.

It pops out pretty quickly that a Ski Area like Wildcat, under a Special Use Permit is paying the US Treasury their cut of revenues based on the MARKET value of many the "deals" they offer, freebies, discounted tix, not on what actually goes in the cash drawer.

A "lifetime ski pass" renewed by the passholder for the season would be reported to the USFS at
the actual market value for a full season pass, not a "comp" or a "gratuity".

What may be "free " to the customer isn't at all "free" to the ski area.

Nice to "offer" a military discount, but because a military discount is " exclusionary" ( not available to ALL), that ticket sale has to be reported at "market value".

EISCL members are up in arms because they aren't being given a "special" discount on personal single day tickets purchased through their club, anymore. Well, yeah, and that is because that discount is considered "exclusionary" and the Market Value rule applies. When it is a Special Event ( IE a race or a race clinic) held on mountain, a "group discount" can apply that is not considered exclusionary IE any group meeting the parameters of # of participants will receive that rate, and the revenue is treated at actual value, not the higher Market value.

Can't escape the hand of the US Treasury, the third party at this table, and the hand that irate customers don't see.

Breeze

 

[AdironRider]

Agree with such a product being unlikely at fully built out areas. An exception might be to use such a product as a tool in selling real estate?

I know Jackson employees get a lifetime pass after working there for 20 years. Im sure lots of mountains do this for long term employees. Not sure if they apply if the mountain was sold however....

 

[threecy]

From a letter from Peak Resorts President Tim Boyd in today's Conway Daily Sun:

The purchase and sale agreement, in fact, contained a list of lifetime pass holders and the seller, Wildcat Ski Reserve, requested the purchaser, WC Acquisitions, Inc. honor the passes. The United States Forest Service, which issued the permit to Wildcat Mountain will not recognize the lifetime passes. Both parties to the transaction discussed the issue in detail and attempted to negociate an accommodation. Ultimately, the parties could not reach agreement on the matter and only then did the parties contract for the sale without such a provision.

 

[Breeze]

Conway Daily Sun doesn't make it easy to find nuggets like this. Can you link? I'd like to read the entirety.

Breeze

 

[threecy]

Conway Daily Sun doesn't make it easy to find nuggets like this. Can you link? I'd like to read the entirety.

I don't think they have a text version of the letter available online at the moment. Their web site is at http://www.conwaydailysun.com. They do offer a very large PDF download.

 

[Breeze]

Thanks, the PDF is huge! Don't think I'll try it.

Appreciate the comeback!

Breeze

 

[thetrailboss]

Click here and go to page 6:

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/pdf/2010/11/30.pdf

 

[gmcunni]

From a letter from Peak Resorts President Tim Boyd in today's Conway Daily Sun:

so what is he saying? old owner asked that new owner take care of the people with lifetime passes and new owner said no so they did the deal anyway? i don't get the part about shifting blame to the United States Forest Service.

 

[dl]

Based on what I've read, my guess is Peak pushed back on Franchi to take care of the lifetime pass holders (by getting less money out of the sale) and he said screw that, they've already sued me several times.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

So Boyd is claiming is was the USFS that wouldn't allow for the transfer of the lifetime passes? That sounds pretty fishy to me. I suspect that Peak didn't push back to hard on that position if true.

 

[Breeze]

The USFS makes the rules concerning valuation of goods and services within the lease agreement and you betcha, their rules will impact policies and procedures within the revenue stream WRT to Wildcat.

And there will be legal beagles and bean counters and the truly aggrieved.

I doubt that this is over. Some of the LTP at Wildcat have been chewing on Pat Franchi for all 24 years, others have their original Life Time Pass pictures as children.

Breeze

 

[riverc0il]

Breeze- Thanks so much for clarifying some of the behind the scenes details. Your posts along with the quote threecy posted above line up to make perfect sense. It sounds like the USFS wouldn't let Peaks handle those passes in the same way that the previous management handled those passes from a fiscal perspective. It would be a shame if the new ownership had to take the heat because USFS demanded payment for "lifetime passes" every season in the form of commission on a season pass that has long since been paid for. This is just conjecture based on Breezes post and the quote from TB. Lame on USFS for making the new ownership take the fall for having to make a business decision based on loosing their shirts by inheriting a token of good will. Total rock and hard place situation. Not often I can say this, but I feel for the new ownership on this issue if this is the case.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

If the situation is as Breeze frames it, then riverCoil's got the right take on this.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Comparing the kmart situation and this one is apples to oranges. The owner of the land is the USFS and Wildcat is the renter. The USFS answers to alot of diferent agencies on all govermental levels, also large private usage groups and has to balance them all to come up what is best for the public good.

One of it's many responsibilites is to produce income from federal leases, especially for recreational use. In view of the current social/financial/political pressure to reduce the deficit, the pressure is on to increase income from this sector of the USFS's mission. Eliminating lifetime passes should increase revenue for the leasee and lessor. Anybody know how many kmart lifetime passholders bought passes after their lifetime :lol: ended?

The thing I wonder is if it's this cut and dry why are the lifetime pass holders sueing the former Wildcat owners. For this maybe there is common ground between the folks that sued Powdr and the Wildcat people.

 

[Breeze]

rivercOil, you got it. I feel for all of the folks in this brouhahah. Pat Franchi, Peak Resorts, the former LTP owners, and the USFS.

I'm guessing that Tim Boyd's letter to the Conway Daily Sun was a public effort to defuse the situation, admitting that yes, Franchi did negotiate " in good faith" for inclusion of the LTP's in the P & S . He just didn't prevail in the situation.

Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

Breeze

 

[dl]

Sounds like it's shook out to me.